Wednesday, May 12, 2010

LOST: Season 6 Episode 15 - Across the Sea

Hello LOSTIES!!!!  It's sad to think I will only be saying this in front of a LOST Recap 2 more times after this one.  But, at least we should have all GREAT EPISODES to discuss and Instant Classics if you ask me!  For me, this one was yet another WOW!!!!! episode in a series of awesomely awesome WOW WORTHY EPISODES!    We got several answers and even expanded the Island mythology even though we'll be wrapping up in 3.5 more hours.  Sure, nothing was extremely SHOCKING in the episode, but it was still great to see it all and I think it was a necessary back-story to prep us for the end game.  I already have been reading some initial reactions and they seem disappointed with what we got and are most concerned with the fact that the Man in Black does not have a name yet.  I beg to differ folks!  We most certainly have a name, and it is what I may start calling him by the end of this recap until I'm told differently!  I can see why the episode may not have been what people were expecting, and with so few hours left in the show it gets even more frustrating when an episode doesn't meet expectations.  But that's when I need to tell everyone to CHILL, sit back, relax and enjoy the information we ARE getting.   It's all going to be over soon and this information we learned may prove very worthwhile for the 3.5 hour end game of last that is approaching.  There will be plenty of time from May 24th until the end of eternity to scrutinize how Damon and Carlton brought their 6 year complicated opus to a conclusion. And it's going to be tough for me to not ask any questions, even knowing that every answer will bring more questions!  (Eve taught me that!)  But, I don't think these Island Inhabitants of yesteryear know that this is what us LOST Addicts do!  So, let's move on and do what we do best!

Across the Sea - AWAY from the Island.  There is a land out there, yet some characters we have met have never seen it.  We took a break from the present day Island story to see the origin stories of both Jacob and the Man in Black (or for a lot of this episode, he was the BOY in Black)!  We follow them from birth to their undoing.  And we met a new character along the way, played by an awesome Allison Janney!    I think this episode was a bit therapeutic simply for the fact that it took us away from the dreary and mournful story that we are about to resume next week.  We lost some major characters last week and instead of bringing us right back into the fold, we get to continue our private mourning while learning a little bit more about why it may have happened!   Time to dive in folks.  One storyline to follow, so it shouldn't be too difficult to follow along this week! 

The Birth
(Some time before 1823) 

We open up on a wreck in the middle of the ocean.  There is a woman floating by and is still alive.  She catches a glimpse of that all too familiar Island!  Before long, we see her unconscious on the beach along with wreckage from a ship.  She is clearly pregnant!  (Was anyone else thinking twins immediately?)   She moves inland and finds drinking water.  Wow, compared to Jack she found that stuff really quickly!


  • Note: I stated before 1824 because we know Richard arrived in 1867 and we know it's been AT LEAST 43 years that Jacob were on the Island prior to Richard's arrival (we get 2 numbers during the episode.  13 Years after the birth and then 30 years after that).  But, if I were a betting man, I would guess that it had to be longer than that!   But at least late enough when SHIPS were sailing the ocean blue! 
  • Anyway, it is not long before we meet another woman (played by Allison Janney).  I'd love to give you a name, but we never get one.  Of course, there is a name that I will call her but considering we don't learn it until the end of the episode I'm going to have to keep you in the dark a little longer!  (you know for a whole rambling blog!)  

  • I'll make it easier by calling Red Dress woman Claudia since we do eventually learn her name.  And isn't it ironic that she was wearing a "RED SHIRT" so to speak? 
  • Island Woman speaks in Latin (ahh the language of the enlightened and of THE OTHERS) to Claudia and offers her help.   Claudia speaks Latin back (I think).  Perhaps a sign of when this episode took place in the timeline?   Eventually, they begin speaking English, but maybe we're meant to assume that the entire episode was really spoken in Latin but just for the sake of our ears and the actors/actresses LEARNING 45 minutes worth of Latin dialogue, we got English!
  • Island Woman takes Claudia to THE CAVE!  (The same cave that MIB led Jack to in season 1 appearing as Christian Shephard.   It just turned out that this cave used to be the home of Jacob, MIB and this Island Lady!)    Now, of course, this early in the episode I think we could sense that we were going to get an answer to the question that has plagued us since way back in the beginning of the first season.   The question that we have theorized on forever.  The question that executive producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse claim that they placed so early in the show so that they could PROVE they knew what they were doing from the beginning.   We do get that answer at the end of this episode.   Are you sold?  I'd say I'm about 50% sold.  But I'll tell you one thing.  I totally called 50% of the answer weeks ago and no one believed me!  But, that's for later in the blog as well. 

  • Claudia asks the Woman where the rest of her people are.   The Woman says that it's only her.  She states that she arrived on this Island the same way that Claudia did, by ACCIDENT.   The woman dresses Claudia's wounds.  
  • Claudia begins to ask how long she has been there but the Woman interrupts stating "Every question I answer will only lead to another question."  Ahhh, such is the tale of  6 seasons of LOST.  And such is the tale of what Damon and Carlton have been telling us.  They're providing answers, but it's only going to make us ask what happened before that.   So if this woman was the predecessor to Jacob and MIB, then who came before her?  How did she get there?  How long has she been there?   How long was the person before her there?  And so on and so forth....all the way until you get back to the Big Bang (creation of the Universe)....and then someone will ask....well what came before the Big Bang?   The questioning will never end.   This is both the beauty of LOST and the frustration of LOST.  But we love it anyway! 
  • Claudia wants to find the rest of her crew.   This woman says that if there are other people on the Island that SHE will find them.   We were told that everything this woman says will need to be analyzed and re-watched, but sometimes I think a line of dialogue can just be a line of dialogue.  But it was kind of creepy the way that she said it. 
  • And then Claudia goes into labor.  The pushing begins and then Island Woman delivers the baby! His name?   Claudia immediately names him, JACOB!  The Michael Giacchino theme for Jacob begins to play.  NICE.  But it is interrupted by Claudia screaming again.  Oh yes, there was a 2nd child!  Another boy.  Of course, we already know that this is the BOY IN BLACK (BIB).   Claudia did not expect a 2nd child and states that she only picked one name.   DOH!!   I couldn't help but laugh here.  We all think we're going to get the name but then she just doesn't have one for him.  I mean come on people.  That is funny stuff!   Also funny was that she wrapped up Jacob in a white blanket and the BIB in a Black blanket.  Good times! 

  • But one question we'll be asking...did Claudia seal her fate by only asking to see "HIM" instead of "THEM"?   It would appear she was disregarding the Boy in Black before she even gave him a chance.   The Island woman simply gets up and says "I'm sorry" and then bashes in Claudia's skull with a rock.  OUCH!   And thus...Island Woman became the "CRAZY MOTHER" that Flocke had talked about a few episodes back to Kate.  And I believe Doc Jensen has already dubbed her as MOTHER OF THE OTHERS!  (since Jacob does initiate the OTHERS organization with Richard later on)   

  • Anyway, did Fake Mom see this as her way out of her current predicament?   Was Claudia doomed to die regardless of her feelings towards BIB?   Probably...but it sure seemed like it was the reason that she gravitated towards BIB over Jacob.   

Childhood
(13 Years Later)

The Game
We revisit Jacob and The Boy in Black years later into their early teenage years.  We confirm that Jacob is indeed the Ghost Boy we've been seeing on the Island in present day.   The Boy in Black has found a game on the beach.  Jacob runs up and sits on a log with BIB to discuss. 
  • The game with the black and white stones is an obvious call back to a few things.  Adam and Eve, yet again who were seen with Black and White stones in their pouch.  Also, in season 1 with Locke and Walt playing Backgammon and Locke explaining how old the game was and how there were 2 sides.  One is Light and One is Dark.   And of course, finally we have seen that Jacob and the Man in Black also have been exchanging White and Black stones as a bit of an inside joke to who just won the latest battle.  We now see that this theme goes back to early in their childhood when they were close brothers and good friends.  (Hurley - Who killed you?  Jacob - An old friend that got tired of my company)  
  • BIB explains that he just knows how to play the game and he will teach Jacob how to play as long as he doesn't tell their mother.   The game looks very much like the Egyptian Game of Senet, something that many of this blog's commenters have brought up on various occasions (as recently as last week!)   We know that there are various ties to Egyptian lore on this show, and it's looking like we may never really get to see WHEN or WHY that started.  (or how the statue got built...but alas, we go back to the Big Bang Questioning again.  We know the Island is old and we know many people were brought there over the years.  Maybe that's enough)    Anyway, here's more Egyptian stuff!
  • Jacob promises to keep quiet and wants to play the game. 

One on One Time with Jacob (at the Caves)
  • We see stand-in Mom creating a tapestry.  Hmmmm, well now we know how Jacob learned the skill of making one.  But, we may even learn WHY he was making one by the end of the episode. 
  • Fake Mommy Dearest asks Jacob where his brother is, to which she already knows Jacob is keeping something.  He tells her that BIB is at the beach staring out at the ocean.  Already, early hints that this boy wanted to get off of that rock!    And of course, we can't forget that Jacob told Hurley that Jack needed to stare out at the ocean to figure out for himself what he needed to do next.   Doesn't seem to fit with BIB staring out at the ocean, but I thought it was worth bringing up. 
  • Jacob offers up his help with the tapestry.  Yep, he's learning!
  • Mother Other asks what they were doing down at the beach.  Jacob wasn't very good in his lie.  She asks him if he loves her to which he responds yes.  (interesting question, right?)   She demands the truth.  
One on One Time with the Boy in Black (at the Beach)
  • We immediately strike upon the better bond between BIB and Other Mom when they're all smiles and kind of making fun of Jacob behind his back.  BIB realizes that Jacob told her about the game.  It is interesting that she told him that Jacob doesn't know how to lie, "He's not like you."  If we're meant to listen to every word she has to say, then I would say that's an important thing to remember!  Of course, we already know that Flocke put together one long con to get where he is now with 3 Candidates out of 6 dead.  (and Jacob dead of course) 
  • Faux Mom tells BIB that he is special, which it would seem she was grooming HIM to be her replacement.  
  • He asked if he could keep the game which she said that he could as she left it for him in the first place.  BIB was hoping that it came from somewhere other than that Island...somewhere Across the Sea.  She goes into LONG CON mode to try and convince him that there is nowhere off of that Island.  The Island is it.  Why would they know any different since they were born there and knew nothing else in life?
  • The questions start coming from BIB - Where did we come from?  She says that they came from her, she came from her mother....to which BIB asks where her mother is.   She tells him her mother is dead.   And of course, BIB has no idea what DEAD even means.  Fake Mom tells him that Dead is something he will never have to worry about.  
Here for a Reason
  • We next fine Jacob and MIB running after a boar with their hunting sticks.  But before they can catch up with it, someone else drives a steak into the boar instead.   They have never seen other people like the on the Island, so they immediately go to their "mother". 




  • She says that these people are not like them and do not belong there.  And then she explains that they are there for a reason.   She is about to tell them but then hesitates thinking that it is not time yet.  
  • She brings them blindfolded through the jungle, to which we learn is so that they cannot find their way back there.   She tells them on the way that she knew about the people and that they are dangerous.   She then says that what makes them dangerous is the same thing that makes ALL MEN dangerous.  "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt...it always ends the same."   Some may recall the Man in Black telling Jacob this the first time we met them during the Season 5 Finale.   She then lies telling BIB that they come from another part of the Island and that he should not go looking for them.  
  • She says that they will hurt them because they are people and that is what people do.  BIB then asks if they can hurt each other since they are people too.  She removes their blindfolds and tells them as she touches them (in a future Jacob-like sorta way) "I've made it so you could never hurt each other".......interesting.....Perhaps when you are the PROTECTOR OF THE ISLAND, you can make up your own rules?   Was this the reason that MIB couldn't kill Jacob himself?  And why he needed to find a loophole?   Or is she some crazy kind of deity that just has these super powers?  I am more inclined to believe that these "powers" are passed from one protector to the next.   

  • Then she turns them around and she shows them some a BRIGHT GOLD LIGHT going into some kind of cave.   "This is the reason we're here."    Seems pretty important, right!?   She warns them to not go in there.   What's down there?  LIGHT.  (nooooo really?)    The warmest, brightest light they have ever seen or felt.  And their reason for being there is to make sure that no one will ever find it.   BIB exclaims how beautiful it is.  The Mother explains how a little bit of this light is inside of every man, but they always want more.  Jacob asks if they can take the light.  She tells them that they can't but if they try it may put it out.  And if the light goes out, it goes out everywhere......ummmmm APOCALYPSE anyone?   All because of a little Nightlight?     I'll admit, I was a little underwhelmed at this "protect the light" concept at first...but then they started adding to it during the episode, and I found it a little more interesting.   A fellow commenter on the blog (AUStarWars, who requested I give him credit if I used this reference) made note to talk about the almighty mysteriously glowing BRIEFCASE in Pulp Fiction.  We never truly learn what is in that briefcase but the fact that we don't know what is in there is what drives so much debate.   LIGHT inside Man?  Yeah...we may need to wait until conversation #2 with this woman to discuss this Glowing Light further.   But at this point we all were pretty much saying...."REALLY??"    

  • She told them that she has protected this place but that she won't be here forever.  Then looks at the both and tells them that it will have to be one of them.  We leave this scene with the Fake Mom looking at BIB and him staring with excitement over the cave.  


The Rules
We return to the game of senet that Jacob and BIB are playing.  Of course, BIB seems to be making up his own rules to the game. 
  • The Boy in Black tells Jacob that he can't pull off a move he just did because it's against the rules. Jacob is frustrated because BIB made up the rules.  He says that he found the game and one day Jacob can make up rules for people to follow too.  The ultimate foreshadowing of future events.   This is kind of why I was suggesting above that maybe the PROTECTOR of the Island can make up their own rules, especially if Faux Mom "made it so" they couldn't "hurt" each other.   Maybe Jacob put some protective bubble over Charles Widmore so Ben couldn't kill him either?   What about all of the time travel rules and how rules in general don't apply to Desmond?  Is it all related?   The producers have pretty much said that they have no intentions of explaining ALL of the rules just simply stating the fact that there ARE rules and how they come about is the key.  So it would seem that these scenes are what are defining how rules get put into place.   Satisfied?  Probably not everyone, but I'm cool with it.  Of course, I have also been accused of being too easy on the show.  So sue me for enjoying a television show and writing about it with unabashed glee!  I don't care.  At the end of the day, I still enjoyed it!  (yes, I got attacked on Twitter for praising this episode)

  • And after BIB has had is fun rubbing in his rules to Jacob, he then sees the GHOST of Claudia (his true mother) roaming around.  Granted, he has no idea who she is.   And also interesting to note....Jacob cannot see her!  
  • BIB excuses himself and moves towards the ghost.  He asks why Jacob cannot see her.  She says that it's because she's dead.  Ummm, Okay, so then why can HE see her?   And don't even tell me this is foreshadowing that Hurley is going to become the next smoke monster!   Of course, we know Desmond and Sawyer both saw Ghostly Visions of Kid Jacob as well.  So what does THAT mean? 
  • Claudia asks the Boy in Black to come with her so that she can show him where he comes from.   He follows her across the Island to a camp with huts and lots of people.  Who are they?   Well they are the other people that were on Claudia's ship.
  • We are told that they came 13 years ago and that their ship was wrecked in a storm (hmmm, another storm.  We know something is coming on this!  I figured it would be in this episode.  Not so much!)   She explains to him what a ship is since he never heard of one.  It is how they came across the sea.  She explains that there are many things across the sea.  Naturally, this is the start of his interest being very high of getting off of the Island.  Of course, now it makes more sense of him wanting to get off of the Island to "go home".  It doesn't necessarily mean that he wanted to go back to be with his family or anything like that.  He just knows that he wasn't supposed to be born on that Island and he wants to see what is OFF of the Island.    Of course, this is assuming that this Boy is still whatever is driving the consciousness of the Smoke Monster.  But we'll get to that below.  
  • Claudia breaks it to BIB that she is his mother not that other lady.    He didn't look to thrilled to learn that! 


Leaving
  • Boy in Black goes back to the cave to grab some stuff and Jacob and then he takes him out into the jungle.  He tries to reason with Jacob and tell him that they are never going back and that their "mother" lied to them all of this time.  That their real people were the people on the other side of the Island.   Jacob just refused to believe it and ended up beating BIB to a bloody pulp.  Woaaaa easy there Jacob!   And what is up with the "HURTING"?   Didn't we just learn that she made it so they couldn't hurt each other?  Perhaps it was just not able to KILL each other?  Or maybe she never did anything and it was a rule that JACOB put into action?  Or maybe I'm looking too much into this?   In either case, Jacob has a bit of a mean edge to him as well!  But we had seen that in Ab Aeterno also. 



  • Fake Mom breaks up the fight and is horrified at what Jacob has done to his brother.  He explains that BIB is planning on leaving to go to THEM.   BIB explains that he knows now what happened.  He knows he is from across the sea, that she murdered their mother.   He then pleads with Jacob to come with him as neither of them belong with her.  Jacob refuses to go with.   Then the "mother" pleads with BIB and tells him that he will NEVER be able to leave this island.  She looks dead serious too.   He refuses to believe her and says he will prove it one day.   And then he left. 
  • The next day is a pretty defining day into the future destiny of Jacob.  Jacob learns that BIB will not return and also his fake mother admits to killing his real mother.   She says that if she had let his mother live, she would have taken Jacob back to her people who are bad people.  She couldn't let him become one of them.  He needed to stay good.  So what do we think?  Is this what inspires Jacob to start making lists and kidnapping children when the 815ers crash on the Island?   Did he have anything to do with that or was that Ben calling the shots?  It would seem that he wants to prove to MIB in the future that people are inherently good and that he shouldn't have to interfere to prove this.  So, I give the question about "why did the OTHERS take the children" an ALMOST answer!   But there is still plenty of room for debate. 


  • Jacob then questions whether he is good or not and asks why this woman loves the Boy in Black more than him.   Her response is that she loves them in different ways.  Um...interesting!  Not sure if this ever sits well with Jacob considering his reaction 30 years from then.   But in any case, this woman asks Jacob to stay with him and he does accept that he will stay "for awhile".  

Adulthood
(30 Years Later)


We catch up with Jacob who is now working on that tapestry by himself.  It is most likely the same one that they were working on 30 years prior.  As we recall, Jacob spoke to MIB and Ben of how long it takes to make one and to actually make the thread.  "But I guess that's the point."  The tapestry looks near completion and Jacob asks what his fake mother thinks about the end result.  She looks less than thrilled but tells him it is very nice.  When Jacob asks if she is okay, she responds that she is just tired.  






The beginnings of the Jacob/MIB Conflict
We catch Jacob watching the shipwrecked crew who have all been there for 30 years now.  And of course, he has been watching his brother, the now fully grown Man in Black, as well.  


  • It looks like Jacob and MIB have been meeting behind their fake mother's back for years now.  And they continue to play their game of senet. 
  • MIB regrets asking about the woman as she never asks about him.  We should note that Jacob acts very childish in this scene, but considering he has had no human interaction besides his "mother" and sometimes his brother, maybe that's to be expected?   
  • Anyway, MIB asks why Jacob watches them.  And Jacob says that he wants to know if their "mother" is right about MIB's people and if they're bad.  The man in black admits that the woman is insane ("I too had a crazy mother") but that she's definitely right about the people being "bad people".   Jacob doesn't really see it.  He said it's easy for Jacob to judge from above, but he has lived among them for 30 years.  They are greedy, manipulative, untrustworthy, and selfish.   He is only with them as a means to an end.  This is most certainly the beginning of their conflict that we see repeated in Ab Aeterno with Richard and the opening scenes of season 5's The Incident.  Jacob trying to prove that man is inherently good and MIB proving that all men are corruptible.  
  • MIB wants to leave the Island and tells Jacob he has found a way off.  Jacob said that it's impossible and that there is no way off of the Island.  Then out of nowhere, MIB takes his infamous knife and throws it at the well behind him, and what do you know?  IT STICKS to the side!  oooooooh magnetism!   Although, they have no idea what to call it since they have lived on this Island their whole loves and who knows how much the outside world knew of Magnetism/Electromagnetism in whatever year it is?   I'm sure someone on wikipedia knows!   It is interesting that this wiki entry dates awareness of magnetism back to 625 B.C. however the discovery of Electricity and Magnetism causing compass needles to spin is around 1819.  And we all remember Flocke explaining to Desmond how people wanted to see why their compass needles were spinning when they walked to certain points of this Island and so they started to dig, right?   Anyway, I've imagined Jacob and MIB's conflict having gone on for much longer than the early 1800s but it is interesting nevertheless!



  • Anyway, I got a little sidetracked!  Jacob  looks shocked at this magic of the knife sticking to the well.  MIB explains that there are very smart men among his people.  Men who are curious about how things work.  They have discovered places all over the island where "metal behaves strangely".  When they find one of these sites, they dig.  Just as Flocke described to Desmond a few episodes back.  But this time?  They found something.  (more on that in a bit)
  • MIB asks Jacob to come with him, asking what he's going to do when their fake mother dies.  Jacob states that she's never going to die.   MIB, in perhaps a foreshadowing comment, states that "everything dies".   Jacob states that he doesn't want to leave this place as it is his home.  MIB retorts that it isn't his.   He will stop at nothing to leave the Island. 
Fake Mother Foils the Plan
  • Jacob returns to the cave and his "mother" asks him where he was.  Jacob assumes that she knows where he was.   So, as we learned, Jacob is no good at lying.  It would seem she knew he has been meeting with MIB all along.  
     
  • Jacob tells her that the Man in Black has finally found a way to leave the island.  She seems very concerned about this.  
  • She heads out into the jungle to confront her former favorite fake son herself.  She heads to the well and waits for everyone to walk away from it.  Then, she heads down the ladder.   MIB is there playing with the fire.  I looked for some symbolism with the hot coals and the fact that he kept prodding at it, but I got nothing!  Foreshadowing of his smokey fate?  Maybe...but let's move on!   Fake Mama is there!



  • He turns to face a potential attacker but then sees that it's her and he permits her to join him.   She is worried and MIB states that she should be.  He has been searching for that cave of beautiful light for 30 years.  He has become obsessed with it, but not once has been able to find it.   But then he began to think what if he could get to the light underneath the Island from some other place?   The people he is with have seen this too and have some very interesting ideas on what to do with it.   He shows his angst towards his "mother" in stating that she wouldn't tell him what they were dealing with.  He then starts prying away at the rocks in the cave, and sure enough, there is that bright light!  And what else?  Yep, there is a large wheel standing upright in the cave. The pieces start coming together.  It's the Donkey wheel that was located underneath the Orchid station!  The one that moves the Island through time and space and the one that shoots people off of the Island into Tunisia.  WOA!!!  Totally never expected them to answer where that wheel came from! 



  • MIB says they're going to make an opening and then he will attach the wheel to a system they're building that channels the water and the light.  And then he's going to turn the wheel, and when he does, he will finally be able to leave this place.  

  • Very interesting.  First of all, I'm not going to comment on whatever year it is and that these people would be smart enough to know how to build a system so advanced that they could generate some kind of wormhole that would transport people off of the Island.  But, I do like the fact that they addressed it.  The wheel has been part of MIB's fascination all along.  Smokey advised Locke to move the Island which sent Ben and eventually him off of the rock and working into his eventual loophole to killing Jacob and getting to the point he is at now.  It's been his since the beginning.  So, when we see Christian Shephard in that cave helping Locke in season 5, we now know that was not the Man in Black's first time down in that cave, and in fact he has a lot more history in it than we knew.     I still question why the wheel was frozen when Ben went there.  And I still suggest that it has something to do with Desmond blowing the hatch at the end of season 2 and stopping the moving island in its tracks (and allowing Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore to locate the Island and get to it).   But that is a theory, I'm afraid, that I'll be carrying with me after this show is over!   Unless it somehow plays into the end game of the show.   Like I said though, I'm pretty excited that the Donkey Wheel made its way back into the story and that they felt this was an essential answer to provide!    
  • Of course, we never see this wheel completed prior to the extermination of these scientifically advanced folk on the Island.  So, I do question how it WAS completed!  But I'm getting ahead of myself.  
  • "Mother" stresses that he should not go.  But MIB keeps claiming that he is special and that he does not belong here.  It keeps stressing how badly he wants to leave this Island.   So his fake "mother " then seemingly gives up and tells him goodbye.  They embrace but then just as she had said to his real mother, she apologizes and then runs MIB into the wall knocking him unconscious.   I thought for sure that she killed him, but not so much!  She had other plans instead. 





Back to the Cave of Light
We next join the woman with Jacob walking back to the place he took him and his brother when they were children.  She wakes him up in the cave and tells him "It's time."  
  • On the way she tells Jacob that she had to say goodbye to his brother.  She doesn't have a choice but to let him go, it's what he wants.  Hmmm, really?   Is she lying to Jacob here too?  Because she most certainly did not let him go! 
  • She brings him to the LIGHT Cave and then tells Jacob that he is going to protect it now.   This is not a task that Jacob accepts very willingly.  But we'll get to that in a second. 


  • Jacob asks what is down there and the woman gets a little more descriptive.  She describes what is in the cave as "LIFE, DEATH, REBIRTH -  It's the Source, the heart of the island."  She asks him to promise her that whatever he does, he will not EVER go down there.   Jacob asks if he would die, to which she responds it would be worse than dying, much worse.   
  • Now, I think we know what that 2nd half of the discussion means by the end of this episode.  But as for what is in the cave, Life, Death, Rebirth - the heart of the Island.  Can we assume that this is why there are dead spirits roaming around the Island?   Sure, not sure it would explain why they are OFF of the Island too (following Hurley around).  But when she makes a comment that if the light goes out there, it goes out everywhere..that sure sounds like it's talking about the rest of the world.  What about this REBIRTH comment?  Could that possibly explain how Sayid was brought back?  Could this energy have been flowing in the Temple Spring?  (of course, tainted somehow by the Man in Black)    Or does the Rebirth solely have to do with what happens to the MIB?   Just throwing the questions out there.  I know there are no answers!  Something tells me they may leave it this vague and just allow us to speculate on it forever.   
  • One thing is for sure, this LIGHT that we are seeing, seems to be the same light that caused the Time Travel Flashes.   Maybe not the PURPLE SKY when Dez blew the hatch though (only because the producers have stated before that the light that surrounded the Island when it moved was different than the Purple light that surrounded the Island when Dez turned that key).   This LIGHT must be the "POCKET OF ENERGY" that the "healer" referred to in the Season 2 Rose and Bernard centric - S.O.S. episode and the same pocket of energy that Eloise Hawking referred to in Season 5's 316.  It is what creates the unique properties of the Island and apparently it is very important to protect it for the sake of the entire world.  That's what we get folks!  If anything, it raises the stakes of the end game of LOST.  Whether people like it or not is another matter all together.  I am fine with it.  I think more people will latch on when we see the characters we have become familiar with over 6 seasons dealing with what was set up in this episode.  3.5 hours left folks.  3.5 hours!  It's coming whether we like it or not! 
  • Anyway, the mother pulls out the infamous bottle of wine that we first say in the Ab Aeterno episode.   She pours Jacob a drink.  She says something in Latin here as she consecrates the wine (yes, I used that word intentionally).  Anyone that is versed in Latin can feel free to chime in on what she said! I'm sure it will be up on Lostpedia before we know it!  
      

  • She passes the cup to Jacob asking him to drink it.  By drinking it he accepts the responsibility to protect this place for as long as he can, and then he'll have to find his replacement.  So, she pretty much admits to killing Claudia and raising these kids to eventually replace her.  Did she BRING this ship to the Island?   Did she cause the storm that wrecked the ship?   Similar to possibly Jacob causing a storm that brought the Black Rock there?  3.5 hours folks, 3.5 hours! 
  • But, what we are treated to is finding out how reluctant Jacob was to accepting this responsibility.  She mentions that her time is over and that he must do it.  Interesting in that she pretty much knew when her death was coming, similar to Jacob knowing that his was coming.  Jacob felt that she was only asking him as a last resort because she had favored the Man in Black.  She tells him that it was always supposed to be him and she sees that now.  She mentions that one day Jacob will see it too, but in the meantime, he doesn't really have a choice.  
  • I know I'm getting sidetracked but I have to ask while I'm thinking about it.  So, when does Jacob learn how to leave the Island?  As far as he is concerned, there is no way off of the Island.  When you become the CHOSEN one, do you just eventually "SEE IT" as the woman mentions above?   We know he does leave the Island MANY times.   And did SHE ever leave the Island to scope out her replacements?  Every question answered leads to more questions! 
  • Anyway, Jacob does reluctantly take the cup of wine and takes a drink from it.   The woman then tells him that he is now like her. 


  •  So did drinking from the cup make Jacob immortal and give him the crazy healing powers and all of that fun stuff?  Or did drinking from the cup just make him immortal?  Does drinking the wine signify you are the next person to protect the Island?  I ask because the first thing I thought of was Jacob offering RICHARD the wine.  Maybe it wasn't Jacob's touch that made him immortal but it was drinking this wine.  And if that's the case, MIB smashed the bottle of wine, so what would be the ritual for the next protector of the Island?   And is the fact that Richard is immortal signifying that he was always next in line to replace Jacob all of this time?   It would sure seem like a huge waste of a season to protect these candidates if that was the case, right?   Anyway, interesting questions regardless, but this scene signified the start of Jacob's reign as ISLAND PROTECTOR. And it was very interesting and very fitting to see that he didn't want the job. 

Back at the Donkey Well (heh heh, get it?)

MIB wakes up from his unconscious spell and sees that there was a path of destruction that occurred during his slumber.   The well is completely filled.  This is very interesting considering the fact that at some point in time (early in time), John Locke lowered himself into that well where there was a completed donkey wheel lodged into the wall of this pocket of energy.  Later on we see Sawyer try to jump in and the well is filled but that was in 1974.  So did MIB dig it back up again?  Again, I think it will be left to speculation. 


  • The filled in well certainly didn't look as destroyed as this one either.  Maybe that well was NOT the eventual "Orchid Well" where the wheel was placed.  But it would seem like that is what they were trying to show us in this episode.  Oh well, I won't harp on it much longer! 
  • MIB sees a cloud of smoke and run towards the village where he spent the last 30 years.  All of the huts have been burned down and the people were exterminated.  They posed a threat to the Island and had to be dealt with.   Does this remind anyone of any other exterminations on the Island?  2 come to mind for me - Richard justifying killing the US Military that posed a threat in the 1950's and the Others wiping out the DHARMA Initiative in the purge of 1992.   Same concept?   It would seem so.   But here's the big question, how did this woman manage to destroy that well and kill all of these people on her own?   I had speculated briefly that maybe she had taken a dip herself in the LIGHT CAVE which may have made her a little bit smoke empowered (not to spoil what's ahead), but the fact that we witness her murder and see her remains in 2004 makes me think that this is not the case. (oh man, I'm just spoiling everything!) 


  • MIB is clearly not happy with what has gone down here.   He finds his little game that his "mother" gave him so many years ago and has a bit of a breakdown.  And this breakdown quickly turns to anger. 

Storm is Coming
Jacob and his "mother" are walking in the jungle back from the LIGHT CAVE and they hear a roar of thunder.  Jacob notes that a storm is coming to which she agrees.  She knows her time is up and she sends him off to get some firewood.  Is there a significance to the STORM arriving before this significant moment in Island history?  Maybe.  3.5 hours folks!  His "mother" gives him some parting words that meant more than just getting firewood.  "Be Careful."  



LOSTIES?  Meet Eve!

Back at the cave, the woman arrives and not long after she sees that there have been some changes since her last time there.
  • The tapestry was destroyed!  (perhaps motivation for Jacob to make a new one that took him over 140 years?)  And of course, by the time he was finished it was time for him to die.  How ironic!

  • Then she notices something in the cave that has not been there for 30 years.  Yes, the Man in Black's Senet game.  
  • The circle is complete.  She pulls out a white and black stone from the game and holds up the black stone to her face. Before she even has a chance to utter one word, a knife is stabbed through her back and through her heart in the cave where Jack, Kate, Locke and crew found 2 dead bodies all of those years later.  Immediately, we recognize that this woman is indeed EVE!  Yes, it may not be her real name, but it'll be so much easier to call her that.   And at this point, I pretty much knew that my prediction on Adam was about to come true!   RIP EVE, you were one crazy but significant lady in your brief stint on LOST! 






  • Do we think that there is significance in the fact that she never spoke before being stabbed?  We know Jacob did speak before Ben killed him.  But they made such a big deal about using this knife and attempting to kill either Jacob or the Man in Black by stabbing them before they could speak.  In both cases, they spoke and it was too late.  I believe it was just due to their persuasive abilities and not the fact that it would prevent them from dying.  But, I still found it ironic that she didn't talk.
  • Of course, she did speak after being stabbed and she uttered the words "Thank You" twice to the Man in Black.  She also told him that she wouldn't let him leave because she loves him.   MIB is clearly upset over what he did and loved his fake "mother" too.  But his anger and desire to leave the Island seemed to get the best of him here.  (and will continue to do so)
    

The Origin of Smokey
Jacob arrives to the caves and witnesses the tragedy before him.  He isn't not too thrilled with his brother!  


  • The Man in Black, in tears, begs Jacob to listen to him.  But Jacob is furious.  He dives into him and begins to beat him just like he did 30 years prior.  



  • Jacob then drags him all the way to the LIGHT CAVE as MIB pleads along the way.  He says that their "mother" was crazy and that she burned them all.  He said that Jacob can't kill him.  "She made it that way."   I guess that answers the question.  They could beat each other up as much as they desire but he can not kill him.  Jacob told his brother not to worry as he is not going to kill him.  There just so happens to be a place on this Island he can take MIB where he can provide a punishment much worse than death! 



  • They arrive at the cave of beautiful light.  MIB is upset that she brought Jacob back here and wants to know why.  He tells him that he has to protect it now.  He then asks his brother if he wants to leave this place.   He then throws him into the water flowing towards the cave and tells him to go.  OH BOY!!  He goes in and drops down into the light.  And I think we all expected what was going to come out! 
  • The light in the cave seems to darken, and a familiar sound starts to come out of it.  And alas, the evil trapped within this cave of energy seems to have been released in the form of a column of black smoke!  The Man in Black has been stripped from his body and is now trapped in this smokey form (at least, that is one way to look at it).  



  • So, I guess Smokey was never meant to be a security system for the temple or the Island.  It's just what the French people consumed with the darkness assumed it was?   I guess that Jacob DID in fact create the smoke monster as I, among others, had speculated before.  But I never would have expected that he UNLEASHED some kind of evil on the Island in a revenge scheme!  Pretty fun turn of events if you ask me.  I still wonder how long ago this was though.  Because we did see engravings in the Smokey Cave in season 5 with the Smoke Monster on it.   Of course, even if this is AFTER the Egyptian times on the Island, maybe this Smoke was released once before on the Island but then put at bay.    I dunno, we can speculate forever, but we already have our BIG BANG Issue that the producers brought up.  We'll always ask what happened before.  Opportunity for some LOST Prequels I guess!  But, considering what happened to Star Wars, maybe we should not consider this!  Maybe the official LOST Encyclopedia will have a timeline of events to help clarify when everything took place.  And perhaps share a little more history that wasn't included in the show. 
  • Jacob runs further downstream, washes his face and then discovers the lifeless body of his brother.  We are reminded by what MIB told Richard in Ab Aeterno "He took my body".   We could speculate that MIB actually died and that Smokey is really a collaboration of ALL Evil and all dead spirits on the Island.  But, so much that has happened this season seems to have been motivated by the MAN in Black.  Yes, it can take the form of dead bodies or apparently belongings of dead people on the Island but the consciousness or soul in charge seems to be the Man in Black, right?  He is the one that wanted to find a loophole to get off of the Island.  He is the one that wanted to GET OFF of the Island!  He lost his body and is angry at Jacob for it.  He had a crazy mother.  He has experienced LOSS.   Yeah, maybe the Smoke Monster (Evil Incarnate) has an agenda OFF Island and maybe MIB's motives are also being used as an ends to a means.  But, now I'm just starting to sound a little bizarre.  It's at least worth discussing, but I have to think that Smokey and MIB are still one of the same.  We have just witnessed that he lost his bodily form.  His SOUL or ENERGY has been captured into this smoke form.  Thoughts anyone? 

'

  • We see that Jacob is torn up by this moment as well.  The 2 people he cared for most (and the only 2 people he knew) are now gone.  Of course, he will eventually realize that the Man in Black is still very present and he unleashed some trouble upon this Island and possibly the world. 
Adam and Eve

Jacob brings the Man in Black's body back to the cave and lays him down.  He also lays the woman they have known as their mother next to him.  2 people that loved each other very much, just in a different way than we expected.  He takes the black and white stones and puts them in a pouch and places them in the Man in Black's hands.   We see clips from Season 1 when Jack and Kate discover the bodies and Jack identifies the bodies as male and female.  We see John Locke chime in saying "our very own Adam and Eve".    What they seemed to have left out was the fact that Jack said the bodies (or their clothing) seemed to have decomposed over 40-50 years.  Clearly, that fact is no longer in play.  It can be justified by the fact that Jack is a spinal surgeon and not a forensics expert.  And of course, the Island is a special place and things may decompose a bit differently.  



(Why was Jack shirtless and Kate in her underwear? Remember Charlie stepping on the Beehive?)









  • In any case, you can all pat me on the back on my call back in "The Substitute" on suspecting that the Man in Black was Adam of Adam and Eve!  Yes, I know I got the details mixed up and Eve wrong but you gotta give me some credit on this one, right?   Here it was:

    "
    Let me just take a wild guess here.  Maybe ADAM is the Man in Black's body and his wife was Eve.   Maybe Jacob had a hand in their death's?   And maybe the Man in Black's eternal struggle for revenge has something to do with Jacob's hand in his wife's death.   MIB talks about still feeling a sense of LOSS.   Seems to tie in nicely, right?  Oh please, hold down your applause, I'll be signing autographs after the show!  Thank you thank you! "
  • Jacob watched over his "mother" Eve and his brother Adam for a little longer and then said goodbye to his brother.    And as we kept waiting for him to finish the sentence with ADAM or Joe or Billy or whatever......



BOOM LOST!!!!!! 

Like I said, I think we got 2 names in this episode.  2 very important names in the saga of LOST.  Adam and Eve.  Maybe some people didn't care about this mystery or how they came to be.  But there have been many also wondering for 6 years who they were and how they died just laying in a cave.  How crazy is it to know that Jacob, the Man in Black and the former protector of the Island used to live in the caves that Jack deemed worthy for the survivors to find shelter in?   The same caves that the Man in Black (as Christian Shephard) led Jack to?   And in the same episode learn the origins of the Frozen Donkey Wheel and know that the Man in Black was key to its creation?   I'm sorry but I found this episode very important and I know there are haters, but I just refuse to agree with them!  

So, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse have been telling us pretty much since season 2 that once we learn the identities of Adam and Eve we will know for sure they were not making it up as they went along.  I have been speculating since before this season began that there is no way we could possibly think that with 100% confidence.  That being said, they did a great job tying it all together.   I think they may have had some idea where they were going with Smokey's character since season 1.  That the monster was portraying Christian Shephard. That Smokey was formerly a man that lived ont he Island and his role will be KEY to the end game of LOST.  I can believe that.  For the actual details of the woman being his mother and the relationship between Jacob and Adam?  I think that may have been a little more based on character developments since then.  But tying in the Black and White themes from season 1, the end of season 5, and the stones throughout this season was a nice touch that was put to great use in this episode.  I just thought it was a great job and a great history of the Island before our LOSTIES arrived to tell how the story "only ends once".    And that ending begins next week folks.  Are you ready for some EPIC storytelling?   I sure am!   The setup for the Series Finale starts next week.
I cannot wait to continue the story of our LOSTIES, but we have plenty to discuss this week as well.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings as always and I'll see you next week for our final Tuesday episode.  NAMASTE!!


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497 comments:

1 – 200 of 497   Newer›   Newest»
Mike V. said...

Sorry guys about the typo in the Poll. the lowest rating #1 should have been Jacob and the Man in Black! (not Aaron). All the more reason not to pick that one! :-)

MJ said...

Any one hear about the 'possible' cable disruption that could begin.....May 23rd !?! Are you freakin kidding me !!!! The 23rd it starts !

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100511/ap_on_re_us/out_of_control_satellite_9

I have Fios which gets its programming from DirectTv - which supposedly says it will not be affected.

rhinoceros said...

Thought i'd say, sinve Mike doesn't put ads up here and everybody knows he puts heaps of effort in, please go here.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978231844

And mat twitter the link or facebook it, get some new people looking.

rhinoceros said...

I meant to say, twitter the link or FB it, people may not know what it is but they'll still click and be interested.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978231844

Whifty said...

Worst episode ever......The one thing i wanted to get out of it was that the producers knew what they were doing from the begining, but with plot lines like sun picking up charlies ring at the end of last season and now dying with no resolution, then this episode which seams like they started making the end game at the end of last season. The reval of adam and eve dosent help me believe that they knew what they were doing. I know this show will get better in the end, but damn did they miis one here.

Anonymous said...

.5/10 I Thought this episode was terrible. One of the worst of the season. It only raised more questions and seemed totally rushed. I feel as if Darlton realized they needed they havent told this story yet and just threw together and slipshot story. So many holes in the story line.

Season one jack said judging by the clothes adam and eve died 50 years or so ago. He was only off by THOUSANDS of years!

Protecting light? Really?

Cornball episode and awful story telling.

rhinoceros said...

No way - you have to see in the whole perspective.

The whole donkey wheel and now light thing has always been a bit corny compared to everything else but give them a break, its sci fi/fantasy.

Anonymous said...

anyone think there is a similarity between:

Jacob / Adam (Light / Dark siblings)

and

Claire / Jack ( Light / Dark siblings)?

MJ said...

"Every question I answer will only lead to another question." The writers must have piddled themselves laughing when they wrote that one !

Red shirt - good one Mike

"He tells her that BIB is at the beach staring out at the ocean. Already, early hints that this boy wanted to get off of that rock! And of course, we can't forget that Jacob told Hurley that Jack needed to stare out at the ocean to figure out for himself what he needed to do next." Alot of folks have stared out at the ocean in this show, but, notably Flocke did after the Ajira folks first found him.


I'm only half way thru the recap - just go to where Jacob is approx 30 - how is it that you haven't mentioned that this women does not seem to physically age ?

Steve said...

Ok, a couple comments to start it off:

1) Adam (I'll go with that) is not "playing with fire" when he is down in the well, he's hardening the metal in order to be used as a pry bar without bending (hardening and tempering can be used to change the hardness and the ductility of a metal, depending on what properties you're looking for)

2) I'm thinking Eve was supposed to be the personification of fate. In mythology, fate is always supposed to be female (sometime three females), and weaving is very closely intertwined (no pun intended). She also seems to show the powers of fate by manipulating people to come to the island, not allowing the two boys to kill each other, and controlling life (measuring the thread) and death (cutting the thread). Also, since fate is such a strong theme in this show, it seems pretty reasonable.

This would also lead you to the conclusion (if you want to go past science fiction and into fantasy) that the "golden light" is actually the source of "life force" in the world, and that it is what "fate" uses to spin her threads of life. Every man has a life force, but everyone wants more. Once "fate" got tired (I don't know if you've read the incarnations of immortality series by piers anthony, but similar concept) she found a replacement. So, now Jacob is fate (he controls people's lives).

3) The wheel could have been finished by smokey at any time. Remember, he can physically alter the world. He probably finished the wheel hoping that it would work, then realized that, without a body, he "plan" couldn't work on him, only other people. As for how those other people knew how to control light and water? That was explained. Eve asked him how he knew what to do, and he said "I'm special". So, it wasn't the other people, it was Adam who knew how to do it, the same way he knew how to play the game. Oh, and for time, keep in mind that in the future he said compass needles, but in the past he said "metal behaved weirdly". That could mean any time. In fact, since the other people didn't immediately think of magnetism it could have been before your quoted 600BC (Adam could have lied about the compasses, or maybe another group of people did come afterwards and do the same thing).

4) Finally, you still insist on calling Adam evil incarnate! Come on, if anything, this episode showed him in a rather positive light. He is a man, who was smart, and wanted to go "home". His mother was killed by a crazy, and he was told that he wasn't allowed to leave. Essentially, he was a prisoner. His mother then attacked him and killed everyone he knew. He, of course, killed his mother, then his brother, without letting him explain anything, kicks his ass and throws him down a hole he was told was "worse than death". Somehow, out of that, we get that Adam is evil incarnate? Sorry, still not buying what you're selling. And we have never gotten the impression that smokey and Adam are two different entities. In fact, in every timeline, Adam seems to behave in exactly the same way. If he has lived for so long, maybe life no longer has as much meaning to him, so killing people who only live 80 odd years isn't such a big deal. Is he jaded? Yes. Is he angry? Yes. Is he desperate? Yes. Is he evil incarnate? Sorry, I'm still a big holdout :). Oh well, maybe I just relate to him better than Jacob. We'll see in the end.

sandi snowden said...

I'm with Mike! I really liked this episode.

In real life are any of our answers of why life is here, how it all started, and where we will go after ever really answered. No we go off faith, or our own theories of life, god, how we thought evolution came about. Man of Faith vs. Science is always the great debate. No one really knows! There are always more questions!!

I like the light because we may be left to decide for ourselves what we think it is all about! I like using my brain and reading other blogs to make my own conclusions. That is the fun of this show!

AUStarwars said...

I havent read the recap, but talked to Mike for a while last night..anyone who didnt like this episode is simply looking for MORE answers than are available..you want the show to make you think, not spoonfeed you all the answers (or what I like to refer to as "The Popcorn Crowd")..sure did it answer everything, no, but does it need to? Was it a "needed" episode? Could it have done more? Sure, but what more did you want? If you cant understand the religious/literary references under the surface and thus interpret the episode for yourselves, then Lost isnt for you to begin with

As much of a "hater" I have been this season, this is the type of episode I was looking for, not feeling bad for Ben and his daughter, not wondering who Kate is going to wind up with, not even the origin of Richard (which was a truly awful episode outside of anything to do with Jacob and MIB)

sometimes, the Hater can be a Lover lol

Mike V. said...

@MJ - I didn't hear about the cable outage...that would be AWFUL! Fortunately, I have FIOS as well. I'll have to check out that link. btw...it didn't wrap on the comments page. I'll try to post any links people put after I catch up on the comments.

@Rhino - Thanks a lot for posting the Gather link again. I appreciate you wanting to help me out! And appreciate the recognition of the effort! Yeah, I don't twitter it...I don't want to confuse people as I want them to come here and discuss! LOL

@Whifty - come on..worst EVER? Even the haters have to admit that the Jack Tattoo episode is by far and away the worst LOST episode ever. A close 2nd to Aaron getting Baptised (Fire + Water). Maybe people want to throw Expose' (nikki and paulo story) on there but I actually thought that was a good time, especially since they died! lol So even if people didn't care for this episode...you at least have to rank it 4th to WORST! But, I would do no such thing. I enjoyed the episode. Not a top 5er but I liked it a lot! Like I said, I don't think there was any way for them to prove to us that they knew what they were doing from the start. But at least it TIED INTO the beginning. That's all we could really ask for. I think they REALLY mapped out the end game at the end of season 3. But flushed it out even more at the start of each season. They have known since the end of season 3 that they'd be ending in May of 2010. So it was easier to plan from there. I still think they had ideas of where they wanted to take the story.

@Anonymous - I wouldn't necessarily go back 1000 years or anything. But like I mentioned...Jack is a Spinal Surgeon and they're on one crazy island! People were already going to disregard the clothes deterioration for Rose and Bernard (since that was 1977 at least)...so why not disregard it for MIB and Fake Mom? She may have called it "LIGHT" but I think we can pretty much assume that it's the pocket of energy that the island rests upon. The same light we saw when Ben turned that wheel and for every flash since then.

I heard another good point. Remember when Locke said that he looked into the eye of the Island and what he saw was BEAUTIFUL? And then in season 3 he said when he saw the Monster he saw a bright white light? EH???? WHITE LIGHT? Maybe Smokey was able to emit that light or something. May be nothing, but I thought it was worth noting.

@Rhino - Agreed...the donkey wheel would be just as cheesy as the light and they're both related. I liked it!

@Anonymous - Definitely a possibility on the similarity between the siblings. Of course I'd reverse Claire and Jack in the way you mentioned them! lol

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with you Steve, after this episode I started seeing MIB differently, as someone that had been chosen for something he did not want to be from the beginning... It truly is sad what he has gone through.. and seeing his real mother and hearing her telling him that everything that he was told was ALL a lie.. he is much smarter and has much more free will then Jacob... MIB has always wanted more and knew he didn't belong on the island and just wants to see what else is out there.. is that evil?? No... I never thought I would be feeling sorry for the MIB!! I loved this episode it really got me thinking about everything that has happened since Season 1... and it actually is starting to all come together!!
Thanks for the great recap Mike!!
Ally

Mike V. said...

@MJ - Yeah...I found a lot of the comments to be hysterical. It probably just frustrates some people even more! Thanks on the red shirt. Why didn't I mention that she didn't age? At that point I think I had already discussed her possibly being the PROTECTOR of the ISLAND. I just had already made the assumption that she wouldn't age lol Been there done that. But yeah, in hindsight maybe I should have mentioned it! But I get into it a whole lot more later on.

@Steve - 1.) ahhh duh on the Fire...not sure why I didn't pick that up. Too busy taking notes I guess! lol 2.) Very interesting with the Fate comments. And considering I just played my way throught he God of War video games...very relevant to me (yes, I'm a dork but they were fun! lol) Also nice on the life force of the world. 3.) Yeah Adam said "i'm special" but come on! How would he know how to do that? He played dumb to Jacob saying how smart the other people were lol I know he knew how to play the game and all of that stuff, but know how to put together a crazy system to move the Island and move people OFF of the Island? a bit of a stretch. But I'll buy it. But whatever.

4.) I believe I called "SMOKEY" Evil incarnate. Every backstory on LOST shows justification for why the characters do what they do. But Smokey's intentions are now truly evil for everyone else on the island and if we want our LOSTIES to survive, then we have to root against him. I'm not SELLING anything. I'm writing a blog with barely any time to sleep or EDIT what I write. It's my initial thoughts on an episode. I think Adam is driven by his desire to go home....but I think being the SMOKE MONSTER may infect HOW he goes about that. And Smokey, if one can consider it a separate entity, may have its own motivation for getting off of the Island. I think we see in this episode that Jacob isn't very innocent either. I think we were counting on seeing that. He's a flawed character just like the rest of them. He wanted to deliver a fate for his brother worse than death. That's pretty evil! And he might be responsible for killing lots of people for the sake of protecting the Island. (Purge, US Military, etc...) Please don't try to summarize all of my thoughts into 2 words like this is how I feel for all of eternity! It was something I wrote in the heat of the moment!

Jase said...

I like your theory with Richard and the wine, and immortality. In addition, think about this: Besides Jacob, Richard is also the only one we know of who can seemingly travel back and forth between the "real world" and the island. Richard could very well have been chosen as and already made the island's next protector long ago, which is why Jacob was not afraid to die. The next protector was already in place. This, of course, would change our view on what the "candidates" are. Perhaps they are candidates to replace Richard?? Or is Jacob pulling a long con on MIB, and the candidates are something else entirely??

Holly said...

I didn't like the clips back to Jack & Kate. REALLY? Are we that dumb that we needed that? Shirtless Jack was ok though.

Symbolism:
*"Eve" reaching hand to Claudia to help her up

*Jacob saying goodbye to Smother (Eve) and Jacob "goodbye brother"....hmmm Desmond says brutha too

*burning rocks in well...I thought Smother was going to throw MIB in that the same way Jacob fell into the fire at temple at the hands of MIB/Flocke/Ben


I liked the episode, sue me.

Richard said...

MIke, thanks a lot, quick post and good post.

Lots of info here.
1. Much easier to see now that MIB and Jacob are not necessarily bad or good. I know after the sub killings you have to think of MIB as ALL bad. But, really-Jacob put him in that light well knowing the result could be worse than death. MIBs mother tried to kill him, Jacob did worse than kill him--Eve actually did kill his real mother. That BIB has had a tough life.

2. Interesting how Jacob has never really seen the bad in people, yet has done some real damage himself. It could be argued that by releasing the evil smoke monster, Jacob is the cause of that evil.
3. Maybe Jacob couldn't see his real mother because he doesn't want to see "evil"??
4. I think the light energy is what Widmore is after to help extend life.
5.Interesting how MIB was originally associated with the "others" and yet later they seem aligned with Jacob.
6.Looks like we are either going to get an ending with a new Jacob or a release of the light energy resulting in some sort of cataclysm.
7. Interesting how Eve had characteristics that embodied some of MIB and some of Jacob. She could lie for example. The Others camp being completely wiped out made me wonder if she had gone down that light energy well and was a smoke monster herself. Thereby when she said it was worse than death, she was speaking from experience and why she said Thank You to MIB. Makes me think we might have a scene where MIB says thank you to someone who kills him during our final episode. In this way he can leave the island.
8. Seems somewhat logical that the Egyptian statue came after this time as Jacob lived there as an adult. Although he could have moved there and it was already built. The temple which seems much older than the 1800s had drawings of smokey on it.

Anonomyous, interesting point on Claire/Jack--Light/Dark

Mike V. said...

@Sandi - Agreed! The fun of the show is discussion! If they answered everything we would be left unimpressed with nothing to discuss (see: the whispers lol Although, there are still things to discuss about it.)

@AuStarwars - I can't agree with everything you said. I still say LOST is for all audiences. Maybe some episodes strike better with certain people, but a "popcorn" crowd as you put it can still enjoy LOST without dissecting every little bit of an episode. There are even "in-betweeners" who want to discuss the episode further after airing but not look into every detail. But I agree, everyone needs to accept that we're not going to get answers to everything or you're just ruining the experience of the final hours of the show for yourself! I happen to enjoy "both kinds" of episodes this season, but like I've said before....I'm easily pleased with this show. There's only really 2 episodes I ever complained about outright.

@Ally - You're welcome! And thanks for the props!

I still say...every bad guy has an origin story. And usually they can be pretty sympathetic. But does that justify everything they do as a result? Well, it depends on if you can identify with mass murder, judge and jury of all living things on the Island! Apparently, Steve can! :-) lol And hey, like I said, Jacob isn't very innocent either when it comes to this! But, if Smokey is going to wipe out 4 beloved characters in one fell swoop (in an attempt to kill 4 others at the same time)...you can bet I'm going to root for TEAM JACK!

Whifty said...

Lost has come down to Jacob finding a replacement to protect the yellow river........................I do in fact nominate Jack for that job!!!!!

Also Mike, Fire and Water was the worst, this is second.....Tattoo epiosode had that hot girl in there so it gets a pass. Nikki and Palo forever!

Mike V. said...

@Jase - Good point about Richard traveling back and forth to the "real world" and Island. I guess it is possible that the candidates are something else entirely. We'll have to see! It would be weird if we had an episode called "THE CANDIDATE," Richard makes no appearance in the episode, but then ends up being the chosen one? lol I dunno. I will still ponder it as a possibility though!

@Holly - I was going to comment on the clips back to Jack and Kate, but I just ran out of time before work. As AUStarWars might say, this is for the "popcorn crowd" that may have forgotten those scenes. It was 6 years ago after all. But for someone like me who has seen that episode maybe 10 or more times...yeah, it was kind of overkill. I can take one for the team though! lol I thought about Desmond saying brotha too LOL But I think we can chalk this one up to them not wanting to say MIB's name! lol Yeah....I'm really feeling stupid about the burning rocks now with the metal....knowing that it was to pry the cave wall open! lol (as Steve mentioned above) I'm with you on the suing Holly! Good episode!

@Richard - You're welcome on the quick post. I only have to do it one more time! I've already warned you guys that the finale recap will take a lot longer, especially since i'm off the next day and it's the LAST RECAP EVER!!! 1.) Yep all good points. See my arguments and agreements in comments above! lol 2.) Yep...another good point and agreed. 3.) interesting idea! Of course he tells Hurley seeing ghosts is a GIFT later on. 4.) I think you're right on Widmore. Extending life? don't know about that...but he's probably after the light. That makes sense. Especially with Tina Fey wanting to know about the pockets of energy. 5.) yes, interesting! 6.) Sounds about right. I still say a volcano needs to be involved somehow! lol And some version of this island needs to sink!!! 7.) Very interesting that EVE seemed to represent qualities of both Jacob and MIB (Adam). I made a similar comment about the Smoke Monster = Eve too. Of course we saw when Flocke was stabbed there was no blood (granted he spoke first)....Eve bled and died...and had a physical body. Smokey does not have a physical body. That's what makes me think against it. 8.) I brought up the drawings of Smokey in the caves under the temple as well....yeah..I guess it could have been prior to the statue. I just wonder how far back!

Mike V. said...

@Whifty - Well at least I got your to move up the episode a notch lol And funny on the Jack to protect the Yellow River. Good times.

Gwen said...

I am leaning towards the idea that MIB is not necessarily the smoke monster and really only gave the smoke monster (evil) a means to do more than it previously could, and in doing so inhabitated the likeness of the dead MIB. We see Jacob and MIB talking well after this occurred. I would have been happier if they would have maybe shown the first time Jacob encounters MIB in what should be his 'dead' brothers body. Otherwise I can't believe the smoke monster is just his brother in a new 'form'.

I Eve's words, I have more questions now. LOL

Anonymous said...

Nice post, and a useful summary. I really hated watching this episode and found myself thinking that the whole series had jumped the shark. So far the show has generally succeeded in refusing to pander too much-- i.e. answering one mystery with another mystery, which keeps the suspense high even in the hokiest sci-fi or melodramatic moments. I found the whole "source of light" literalness cheesy and uncompelling, especially given the clunky dialogue and melodramatic acting.

That said, the episode has grown on me since last night, in ways helped by your blog post. For one, I'm totally convinced that the lingering "mystery" to this episode is quite compelling: i.e. that Not-Mom is an incarnation of smokey, and that the MIB is the same kind of rube (and victim of the long con) that we've already seen in the life and death of Locke. He is told that he's special and believes it; we see the tragedy of his unfulfilled longing as his corpse becomes separate from the "smokey" version of himself.

In other words, in spite of my annoyance with the episode as it played out, the "origin myth" doesn't actually provide the origin of *everything* at all-- it just pushes it back (who is the fake mom? who are the shipwrecked folks, etc). I wish this could have been emphasized a bit further, in order to make the episode a bit more subtle.

All the same, for all the oversimplifications in the episode (were the "Adam and Eve" flashbacks to season 1 really necessary?), the question of "evil" remains wonderfully murky. Killing off anyone whose very presence threatens to corrupt one's sense of "good" strikes me as behavior pretty close to evil. And if those are the conditions of Jacob's and BIB's very birth story, then it strikes me that categories of good and evil are about as abstract for them as the ideas of "death" and "a place across the sea" are for the young boys. (Good? What's that?). As others have said, the categories of good and evil are about as arbitrary and as formal as the rules of the game they play.

Thus the idea of "protecting the island" strikes me as deeply ominous. Does "protecting" it have the same resonance as Non-Mom's "protection" of the boys against the possibility that their birth mother might take them away? Is the very threat Non-Mom describes (that the Source of All Light might be corrupted, extinguished, etc) equally as preemptive and formal as her murderous protection of "good"?

With this in mind, I see the wonderful irony of making such a metaphysical force such as "the source of all light" into something absurdly concrete— "Step Right Up! Here it is! Right here in this Cave! The Source of All Light!"— while basic experiences of living, such as death, ethics, and the shape of the world, remain so utterly, dangerously abstract.

I just wish the dialogue had been a little less cheesy.

Mike V. said...

@Gwen - Good point that it would have been good to see Jacob and MIB's first encounter when he's Smokey. Of course, with a 2.5 hour finale, I wouldn't necessarily count out a scene like that. I'm sure it will be mostly Sideways vs. Island...but another meeting of the minds might be something worth seeing. Although, I think we've known since Ab Aeterno that MIB somehow lost his body. He told Richard that outright. But he continued to speak of his past to the Candidates and other LOSTIES as if it were the Man in Black's past. Then again, he does have memories of all of the dead bodies on the Island. So...who knows?

@Anonymous - Thanks on the props! I'll admit that I did find the "LIGHT" thing cheesy at first until they started flushing it out and making me realize it's more than protecting a light. It's a SOURCE (Energy)...something we've been talking about all the way back since season 2. Maybe some of the dialogue was a bit clunky. But it didn't bother me too much. All good thoughts that follow! Still not sure about Non-Mom = Smokey though...I know I brought it up in the blog...but then I've justified since then why it most likely isn't! lol

cdstedman said...

My take on smokies origin. The smoke monster is not MIB. It’s evil incarnate just as it’s been described on the show. It was just released (from it’s prison?) by Jacob by breaking the rule of never going in there when he sent MIB down. Smokie than took MIB’s image, traits, and memories just like he’s done to Locke this season. We’ve seen Flocke use the same phrases real Locke does “don’t tell me what I can’t do” just like he has used in MIB’s form. When mother said what was down the cave was worse than death she wasn’t talking about what would happen to that person personally. She was talking global. The evil has escaped and if it leaves the island it will extinguish all the light in the world. Lost has simply turned into a we have to save the world story and I’m OK with that, anything less and I’d be disappointed.

Mike V. said...

@Stedman - Well considering they were "saving the world" by pushing that button, I'm fine with it boiling down to that. Yeah...it's a good angle to take on Smokey just pulling ANOTHER long con with taking on MIB's image and traits and what not. And a good point that she could have been talking about releasing that monster is what is worse than death. I too thought of Smokey using a John Locke line at one point. I'd be cool with that if it ended being what was going on. Smokey and MIB are 2 separate entities. It make sense. We'll see!

Snafu11 said...

@Mike V - Sorry no partial credit for the Adam and Eve guess--this is not horseshoes or hand grenades. No soup for you!! j/k

I think I was one, of maybe a few folks, who've commented on Jack being just being a spinal surgeon and that the island properties skew degredation of clothes (& statue rubble).

I don't quite get all the hate--at some point people have to let go of some reality to accept any of this story. Just enjoy the ride from here on out, regardless of how it ends.

My opinion is that the episode was very good, it was required. Was it presented neatly or seemed rushed--perhaps but you have to let it go and not dwell on the smaller stuff. Take what your suppose to from it and move on. If your hating this much on the show this late in the game perhaps you should think about watching Desperate Housewifes instead for your riviting TV pleasure.

@AUStarwars - well stated response to those who hate, and it's nice to see you come full circle from the haters club back to being a voice of reason. Your redemption is confirmed ;-)

Jase said...

Good point about Richard traveling back and forth to the "real world" and Island. I guess it is possible that the candidates are something else entirely. We'll have to see! It would be weird if we had an episode called "THE CANDIDATE," Richard makes no appearance in the episode, but then ends up being the chosen one? lol I dunno. I will still ponder it as a possibility though!


Mike,
It was just sort of a stab in the dark that the candidates could be something else. I don't remember if it was definitively stated being a "candidate" meant "a candidate to replace Jacob". (Perhaps it was -- just don't remember.) But, if not, maybe being a candidate means a candidate to be Jacob's "champion" to prove that men are inherently good.

I just found it interesting that Richard has already exhibited 2 of the "powers" also associated with Jacob, who coincidentally is/was the Island Protector. So, if the candidates are as we have been thinking them all along -- When Jacob allowed himself to die, would that not leave the island without a protector? Would Jacob allow that? Unless Richard was unknowingly made Jacob's (perhaps interim) successor -- as part of a larger plan for a permanent successor.

Anonymous said...

FYI,

The script, as noted on the Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast, said that "two millennia" passed between the events of the end of the episode and the discovery of Adam and Eve.

-Jackson

davidsalako said...

@cdstedman - you described exactly what I was thinking regarding that THING's origin! lol!
The THING that has been manipulating Jack and company is not just MIB or John Locke - it existed before them and is using the consciousnesses that drive it's purpose to be released into the world. The tragedy of MIB's longing to see the outside world, his real mother's mother and his complex relationship with his ISLAND mother is some great stuff. It makes watching FLocke and his machinations so much more compelling now. IT has to be stopped!

Regarding the reason why some of the dialogue may have seemed a bit cheesy - I think it fit into the whatever timeframe this was all supposed to be taking place. Latin seemed to be the default language then so I am guessing sometime in the last 2000 years? Also if a pregnant woman was traveling by ship, ship travel must have been fairly common place at this point in history? The stuff about the LIGHT being the source of all things kind of ties into many other religious/fantasy/sci-fi themes - the light of the Star Wars Jedi's being extinguished and the Elves being the "children of the light" in lord of the rings being just two examples. Not to mention the "big bang" theory or the creation accounts in Genesis.

Loved the "consecrated" red wine sequences and how Jacob came into full "communion" with her and the ISLAND as a result. Like the Latin "the language of the enLIGHTened", it must be my Catholic sensibilities!

In the twilight world of this ISLAND, good and evil seems very blurred to me! That mother sure killed a lot of folk to protect the world from Evil Incarnate. Jacob's tragedy is that his inclination for only doing good and only seeing good caused his suppressed rage to release IT.

Mike V. said...

@Snafu - LOL Yeah I know. But come on! Many people wouldn't get off the Jack/Kate, Sawyer/Kate, Sun/Jin, Rose/Bernard bandwagon....and I pretty much stuck the the MIB and Some other Female theory throughout the past few weeks! lol

Yeah, you might have commented on the Spinal Surgeon as well. I always realized that too and probably mentioned it in the 23 Mysteries posts but originally I just thought they wouldn't throw out that random date for the hell of it. Apparently, they changed their thoughts on how far back this story goes since the beginning. So...whatever! I'm with you on enjoying the ride.

For the record, I used to watch DH, but I gave up on it this season after realizing I haven't really cared about it since the first season lol. But totally agree on LOST. There is just nothing of this size and scope on TV today. And we may never see anything like it again. Never say never...but it's just been an amazing story. I think we can give them some slack on some chunky dialogue now and again. Nice on the Redemption arc for AUStarwars LOL

@Jase - I know it was a stab in the dark. And I was supporting it! lol I think they did clearly define that candidates were candidates to replace Jacob and protect the Island. I think it's been mentioend a few times. But that doesn't mean that it can't be a bit of a lie....except for the fact that apparently, Jacob is incapable of lying (so says his fake mom lol) Good call that maybe they are to prove that men are inherently good. So maybe they got crossed off when they either died or did something unredeemable? It's possible! We still don't know why Kate isn't crossed off of the Lighthouse yet either. Do we know if leaving the island is really a "POWER" though? We have never seen Jacob or Richard physically leave the Island so we don't know HOW they did it. All we know is that Richard tells Locke in 1954 that it is privleged information. As for leaving the Island w/o a protector...he tells Smokey in Ab Aeterno that if he is killed, then there will be people to replace him. So Smokey cannot succeed until Jacob is dead and ALL candidates are dead. So the SUCCESSOR seems to already be in play. But, there was no drinking of the wine with this crew! Just Richard. So, not sure if that was symbolic or necessary to pass things on.

Richard said...

All,
If Eve did not turn into a version of smokey, how did she do all of that damage? I don't think we've seen Jacob have that kind of power by himself alone?

It could have been a 3rd party, but I kind of doubt it given we're nearing the end of the series.

Mike V. said...

@Jackson - Very interesting. I didn't even know their podcast was up already! Ugh...I can't download to my phone w/o a wireless connection! lol I guess that will be for tomorrow's listening enjoyment. Or I guess I could just go online lol So old school!

@David - Yeah I think i'm getting onboard with this idea that Smokey and MIB are different entities. It does make sense. It's even affecting me referring to Flocke as MIB anymore lol He was just so convincing all season as portraying the Man in Black within Locke's image all season....then again he was convincing as a ressurected Locke last season too....so anything is possible with this show! but this further goes to show that my statement (restated to Steve) that SMOKEY is Evil Incarnate is still valid, even if the Man in Black was NOT so evil (just as flawed as every other human to come onto the Island) We'll see! I brought up the similar comments about ship travel in the blog. Looks like we got our answer that it was about 2000 years before 2004. So...the year 4?? lol So this was during the time of Christ? Interesting.... I don't think they'll go there though (literally I mean) lol

Agreed about the LIGHT and LOTR and Star Wars stuff.

Mike V. said...

@Richard - I have the same question myself. We have yet to see anything regarding dramatic weather changes on the Island and Darlton promised that we WILL see this. Perhaps the Protector of the Island can summon big storms to do whatever? I brought this up in the blog too. but I don't see how that would set fire to the camp, kill all those people, and damage the well. But MIB did say "SHE BURNED THEM ALL".....maybe she's a dragon? lol j/k Anyway, Smokey doesn't burn things, right? Regardless of the fact that it is "SMOKE"....Smokey could damage that well though. So i dunno.... I have to think it's something other than smokey though. But I did ponder it too!

Candidate said...

I've been posting these blogs on my FB page lately. Great Recap Mike. You're writing style has evolved a bit in the last few blogs. This is to say Great Job. Some very lol moments on this recap... your "Faux Mother" and Mommy Dearest references...DOH!! def a good time and I love the BIB acronym.
I think this ep was pretty straight foward and not sure it neccesary to dissect "Eve's" Diologue or the lines on her face as something to over analyze as suggested by some of the pros who pre-screened the episode before we did.
I have really enjoyed the history episodes of the Island and am totally on board w/ the glowing light. I wasn't underwhelmed by it on first impression but that's just me.
Although... I ...loved the episode I can see how others may have been dissapointed especially following up on the coattails of "The Candidate" which was edge of your seat nailbiting intense stuff. I am actually still reeling from last weeks ep. I am happy with our answers and we got a lot of them. I think for those whining about "Across The Sea" would be the same people that would complain if these answers were revealed. Lost of room for fan fiction on Eves backstory and even previous timelines plus Pre-Black Rock and how the statue was built will be fun paperbacks to read. Cheerz

Mitypen is my puzzle for this post

Mike V. said...

@Candidate - Thanks for the props on Facebook! And thanks for noting my writing style evolving. I don't really pick up on it. Great, now I'm going to feel pressure for the final 2 recaps :-) lol Glad you enjoyed my acronyms and light-hearted humor too! I'm with you. I'm not sure there is anything extra to read into what EVE was saying either, but I'll most certainly be watching it again before next week. So I'll see if I pick up on anything. I guess Underwhelmed by the light is a bit harsh. I looked at my wife and just joked and said "they're protecting light? THAT'S IT?!?!?!" But I was just messing because I knew they were going to provide more detail on it. I can definitely see how people could dislike this episode. But, calling it the WORST ever? I think that's just anticipation that we're getting to the end and they feel this was a waste of time. I do not see it as a waste but as a necessary step in getting to the end. A MEANS TO THE END if you will. (thanks MIB). I'd definitely be interested in reading some expanded universe novels that "expand" on the EVE story and all of this fun stuff that happened PRE-LOSTIES. We'll see if they go there.

Mitypen eh? The Pen is mightier than the Sword? Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? LOL

Anonymous said...

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2010/05/lost_across_the_sea_review_wor.html

Heres a good read about last nights episode.

-Jackson

Richard said...

Mike,
Would it be a fun or interesting poll on which side Ben will end up in IW? At this point, at least two big issues, is IW Ben bad/good and which side is really bad/good? Of course we pull for our losties, but they aren't even always on the same side. As I write this question figuring out who's on which side is still a little blurry. Except that I see Jacob, Jack, Kate on one side and Flocke with lots of questions on the other. I still think Ben is with flocke and being so doesn't necessarily make him all bad, especially after what we saw last night. Richard seems to be back with Jacob too. It is possible that without Widmore(doubtful),Ben, Sawyer and/or Claire--Flocke is a loner. Since I don't see Flocke being a loner the most likely seems Ben.

Mike V. said...

Here's the article Jackson referenced

Sorry MJ, I already archived the email of your comment with the Yahoo article and I can't find it! lol

crashriprock said...

Dammit
Now we are going to need an Fmother flashback....
lol

In pulp fiction Terintino used a Macguffin in the suitcase and in my humble opinion he is the only one since Hitchcock to use it successfully.
They tryed to use it in the movie RONIN but the writer/director put too much importance in the Macguffin to make it work correctly and at the end of Ronin not knowing what was in the case left a VOID in the storyline.

crashriprock said...

oh
They are not playing SENET
they just used the board as a prop.

and I have it on good source that the date for this episode begins in 23 ad

Mike V. said...

@Richard - I guess it would be an interesting poll! If I get a chance maybe I'll post it later. I still assume that his character has "repented" for his past flaws. And he is on board with stopping Smokey. this would be even better if Widmore/Hawking were supporting Smokey. I still would love to see a Ben vs. Widmore battle before the end.

I have to think all of our ORIGINAL LOSTIES are on one side now. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and even Claire. This would only make sense heading into the end game. Richard, Ben and Miles helping them would make sense too. Oh right...and DESMOND of course!

If we go under the assumption that MIB is still Smokey...we know he has a fascination with the SOURCE...the energy of the Island. This sure seems like it is going to come into play with the end game of LOST. So Maybe Widmore is essentially helping Smokey with this cause. for what reason? That is TBD. Well, the WHOLE theory is TBD! lol

davidsalako said...

Still want to know why young Jacob apparition had darker hair and was no longer blond when he appeared to Smokey and Desmond.
Will the questions ever end???

Rukshan said...

wow! I just saw the episode and had to come in here and shout out WOW!!!

I wont speculate anything, I want to let the story unfold on its own..

this is brilliant!

Richard said...

Mike,
You could have your Ben/Widmore battle if Ben aligned with Flocke and Widmore with Jacob. Maybe the alignment makes more sense just opposite? That's the fun of figuring it out---motivations, etc. It's just hard for me to see Ben go back with Jacob after he has killed him, but maybe that would be the ultimate in repentance/forgiveness? Widmore doesn't want to stay on the island long term, he just seems to want use of the special properties. Sawyer still wants off the island and so does Flocke, it would be interesting to see a Sawyer vs Jack scenario as well.

Having everyone on one side except Flocke just doesn't seem as interesting/comples

davidsalako said...

Perhaps THE ISLAND's fire can be summoned to "burn" people like the mother did?
Some sort of allusion to the volcanic properties/capabilities of THE ISLAND?

Mike V. said...

@Crash - yeah I know I took liberties in saying they were playing SENET, but I also said the BIB was making up his own rules. So yeah...I assumed they weren't playing the actual game. Of course, if people want to assume that the Man in Black just "KNOWS" things because he's special. Surely he might know the rules of a silly game like SENET! I mean if he can put a wheel together with a system to create a time travelling Island and a wormhole that transports you to tunisia...maybe he knows how to play it! lol I'm just kidding around though...i'm with you that he was making up the rules.

Agreed that the briefcase in Pulp Fiction was a Macguffin. George Lucas always talked about finding a macguffin for each Indiana Jones movie...but I guess in the end of each movie we did see what it was all about lol What's your source on 23 AD? lol I guess if it's 4 AD or 23 AD they're still the numbers!

Weasel said...

I thought it was good episode overall... If I have any issue, I would say it was that I was disappointed based on all the hype it got. People saying you would have to watch it twice, etc.

I am not buying you theory that Smokey and MIB are 2 different entities. I think that MIB's "soul" became the black smoke. He has 2000 years to become "Evil Incarnate".

Richard said...

Weasel,
Given that MIB's body is dead and Locke's body is dead who's soul is smokey now?

crashriprock said...

I think its pretty safe to asume that the man in black is dead. That the entity that is the island (spirit for now) is using his body just like he his using Lockes.

If you look at the birthing scene I dont think the BIB was suposed to be there and the IS just took the oppertunity to manifest itself in the form of a second baby.

The question is which baby was the Island baby and which baby was the Woman in red's real baby.

Remeber Flocke told someone (Iforget) that Jacob had stole his body.

Mike V. said...

@David - I think we're gonna have to let that question go! Maybe the kid actor was going through a phase that week! lol You could be right on the ISLAND LIGHT vs. Fire summoning. I dunno! But yeah, it could be an allusion to this volcano that we may never see lol

@Rukshan - Great to hear some positive press towards the ep!

@Richard - Touche' if it was vice versa. I think we already got our Sawyer vs. Jack for this season with him not trusting Jack on the bomb. This makes them even (kinda) on Jughead vs. Sub. I think they're gonna work together now.

I was just talking to someone about how crazy this show is and how they need to wrap it all up in 3.5 hours. Then I thought about the fact of how the writers love to write themselves into corners and make us wonder how they're going to get out of it. If you think about all of the things they need to try and resolve in these final hours, it's just crazy how they're going to make it work. That Island needs to sink in some version of the timeline, the Sideways/Island timelines need to be reconciled somehow, Smokey must be stopped (or allowed to proceed??), Ben and Widmore need their fight, Desmond needs to factor into this all somehow, we need to have a protector of the island (or do we?), Richard/Ben/Miles are out there somewhere, the LOSTIES are somewhere else, there are OTHERS scattered all around the Island.....and we have NO IDEA how this show is going to end!
I'm leaving some stuff out...but this stuff is just crazy! It makes us worry that they're not going to be able to pull of some kind of closure for 6 seasons worth of mysteries. But the amazing thing will be when they DO pull it off and we're all left dumbfounded! Can't wait!

Mike V. said...

@Weasel - I agree that maybe the episode was "overhyped"...but I still really enjoyed it. Good point on the 2000 years to become evil incarnate. I think if anyone was trapped on an Island as a pillar of smoke for 2000 years, it could lead to some pent up anger and overall EVILNESS! you might be swaying me back to my original thoughts! lol

@Richard - I don't think he was suggesting that Smokey switched souls....the soul of smokey "IS" the Man in Black's...but he can take the appearance of any other Dead figures on the island...and retain their memories. (i'm not stating this as fact...just as part of the theory lol)

Richard said...

Mike,
Hence the extra half hour that was required must be AWESOME

Mike V. said...

@Crash - Safe to assume? What about the fact that "smokey" (for the sake of the discussion) told Richard that Jacob took his body?

Woa...I don't think ANYONE is suggesting that Smokey was "SMOKEY" at birth lol I definitely don't think it's safe to assume THAT at all! I think the woman just didn't know she was having twins. I don't know if they had the technology to know if they were having multiple babies 2000 years ago. I guess you might be able to feel more kicking than normal and stuff though lol

Like i mentioned above (which i wrote before I read your last line) The Man In Black (as smokey) told Richard in 1867 that Jacob had taken his body. I think if you combine that comment with Jacob throwing him into the LIGHT CAVE and his lifeless body popping out a good sign that the SOUL of the MIB is in smoke form. That's how I immediately received the scene. It wasn't until after that I discussed with my wife that I started pondering other options. (such as 2 different entities)

crashriprock said...

reads this link if you want to know what game they are playing

Look at the numbers and pay close attention to the directions the players move.

also pay attention to what happens when a player is "CAPTURED"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapa_(game)


ps.Who ever comes up with these word puzzles... must really suck at Scrabble

Mike V. said...

@Richard - agreed, it's going to be EPIC! I can't wait to just sit back with no notepad and watch the episode with 100% attentiveness. I think I've earned it lol I'm even going to watch it LIVE! (no TiVo delay)....i know i'll be tired of commercials by the end...but I want to see every moment as it's airing! lol

Leanna said...

did you notice in the Adam and Eve scene...Jack is shirtless...and Kate in a bra...then she's nude....then he's got a shirt on and so does she??? WHY?

crashriprock said...

Jacob became the Island Spirit when he drank the wine with Fmother. hense the reference to the real Jacob. Our Jacob took the BIB's birthright to become the Island Spirit(for lack of better words)

At Birth its pretty clear that the kid with black hair was the real moms kid.

When Jacob tosses The black hair man into the LIGHT WELL it disipates like Fmother said it would. This changed its very nature.
And that nature wants off the Island but it was trapped by Jacob the last remaining vessel of the light itself

davidsalako said...

I now understand MIB'd derision of John Locke a bit more now. He believed he was special, like Locke did and ended up getting killed by a close "rival" to.
The funny thing is that both MIB and John Locke ARE special in their own ways!
MIB was a naturally very smart and independent dude!
Locke loved and believed in THE ISLAND!

justin6case said...

I going on record as believing that the fake mother was capable of becoming the smoke monster. I also believe that MIB is dead and the smoke monster is the smoke monster, not MIB or MIB's soul. He took his body and has been using it. Now he's using Locke's body and we saw him use others. I understand there are some problems with my theories but I think they make the most sense. There is no way Eve could have filled in that well by herself in a MONTH, let alone a day. Also, how could she have caused such destruction and killed all those people. It just doesn't make sense that she could do this in human form. Maybe when MIB killed her, the smoke monster got put back? Then Jacob release it again. How did she know what would happen if Jacob went in the cave if she hadn't done it herself. I think this is why she warned so strongly against it.

davidsalako said...

BTW - does anyone else think that this cave with the LIGHT is the same pooL and waterfall whereJack, Kate and Hurley flashed to off of the Ajira 316 flight?
The same pool with the air marshall's case that Kate and Sawyer retrieved and the same pool the Paulo and Nikki went to look for their diamonds?

Mike V. said...

@Leanna - I think the scenes may have been shown out of order. Or there was a commercial in between. As I mentioned in the blog, if you recall..Charlie stepped on a beehive in that episode and Jack and Kate went running and stripping their clothes off to avoid them. Maybe when locke comes in to discuss "Adam and Eve" they were clothed again at that point. If I recall...Locke came in with Charlie a little later because they were fleeing the bees a different way...and well..Charlie did get stung lol Ahh the good ol' days.

@Crash - Not buying it. lol The 2 kids were Claudia's kids. We don't know what their father looked like! But Jacob may have looked more like his father. But hey, if you can find anyone to support that theory, the more power to you! :-)

crashriprock said...

ok
the reason we havent been given the name of the MIB is because his name is Jacob. The blond haired kid born to a dark haired woman his name is Samael
here is a link.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael

Mike V. said...

@David - Good points with Locke/MIB comparison.

@Justin Case - I'm not disagreeing, they're all valid arguments and I've supported them both throughout the discussion (Eve being Smokey and MIB being Dead).....but here's a thought...why would the mother be so keen on making Jacob the protector of the Island if she was the Smoke monster? Had she lived so long that she knew she was too evil to remain alive? I just don't know. I also don't know how much we're going to revisit this story...so I wonder how much we should be looking into it! LOL Especially when it comes to THE MOTHER. But I would like to know how she killed all of those people and destroyed the well. Maybe it will come into play somehow in the finale. We'll see!

@David - I don't know about the light being in the same waterfall that we saw in those other episodes.....do we think the light is extinguished? Because if not...why wouldn't we have seen it? It looked like a brand new location too.

Mike V. said...

@Crash - you think they're gonna pull a switcheroo on us in the final hours? I guess it's possible, but I sure hope not!

davidsalako said...

I think the LIGHT is hidden because they are not looking for it - yet!
Much like the LIGHTH0USE! lol!

AreUPokey said...

So about this "clue" to prove Darlton knew what they were doing from the beginning...

When I first saw Jacob laying Adam & Eve down in the cave I thought, "This doesn't prove anything." But as I have pondered it a little more I have become convinced that it does.

First of all, the white & black stones are very significant because they make a show of finding those on the bodies, then Locke makes a show of explaining the idea of the ancient game of light vs. dark to Walt. That alone is 90% proof to me. But still one could argue that they could have shaped the story after the fact to some extent...

That is, until Season 2, episode 13 "The Long Con." In this episode Hurley finds a manuscript of a book by Gary Troup called "The Bad Twin." Here is the description of the plot of that book (taken from LostPedia)

Hyperion Publishers tout the book as "a suspenseful novel that touches on many powerful themes, including the consequence of vengeance, the power of redemption, and where to turn when all seems lost."

That's all I need folks...all hail Darlton!

MJ said...

Holy crow - 40 comments already ! I haven't read but the first few yet though.

The ep was a little slower than I thought - but i think I built it up in my head too much. But I enjoyed it. Damn it though - I wanted MIB's name. LOL. Team Darlton are torturers in disguise. LOL


"What about this REBIRTH comment? Could that possibly explain how Sayid was brought back? Could that possibly explain how Sayid was brought back? " Don't forget young Ben was rebirthed as well.

crashriprock said...

its not a switcheroo
It was a division that took place
durning the birth. There was only suppose to be one.

Mike V. said...

@David - Yeah, or maybe they can only see it if the PROTECTOR brings them there lol

@Pokey - Nice analysis!!! I'm on board! lol

@Crash - whatever you want to call it...we were meant to think one thing and you think the WRITERS will switch it up on us. I wasn't suggesting that EVE switched up the babies or anything. Anyway, I'm still not buying it! lol \

@MJ - yeah it's insane. everytime I post and hit refresh there is more...and I have to head to a meeting in 5 minutes! It's time to fall behind! Good times on Darlton being torturers LOL True about ben and the rebirth....but he didn't DIE (well we don't think he did), the spring healed him though....Sayid DIED! and came back. The only person on lost that we know was DEAD for and then came back. Unless you want to count Charlie in "All the Best Cowboys" of season 1. Man I love that scene!

off to my meetings. ugh..not looking forward to them.

crashriprock said...

I have it on good source that the timeline here was 23 ad(you said not to post them so I wont)

If that is the timeline then the 23AD losties would be roman
If Fmother had been the Islands protector and was looking for a replacement there is a good chance she would have been egyptian.... and the one before her would have been Sumerian (babylonian)

gnni4 said...

Mother Of The Others...
MOTO, I think that I shall always think of her as MOTO now!

MOTO says the light is The Source. Source/Force, we know that Darlton are strongly influenced by Star Wars, and they have brought up not wanting to get into detail like midichlorians, but come on...the light are midichlorians.

I never thought that MIB was total evil, and after this episode, Jacob seems to be more evil to me. He is exactly what he is arguing that man is not, vengeful, jeolous, angry. I felt so sorry for MIB, he is exatly like John Locke - a man who has been used and tricked and lied to, who's own desires are turned agaist him.

MOTO had to be a smoke monster also, how else could she have wiped out that little village and all the people in it, did you see them? All bloody and torn up, we have seen that before. That was not just the act of a crazy lady with a rock.

Is that why Jacob had The Others create that fake village that Walt was brought to when they met with Michael? A little tip of the hat to recreate his past?

So this whole thing is Jacobs game that he gets to make up the rules for? This episode left me disliking Jacob more than I had, he was very angry and violent.

I don't want my losties to die. I don't know if MIB is the smoke monster or just being used by him, but if he is still MIB, then I wish he could get off the island, poor thing.

Mike V. said...

@Crash - I did say not to post them? If they're not spoilers then please..post it! lol

crashriprock said...

there was only suppose to be one child raised to protect the Island
That child then tests other prespective people to become replacements.

Fmother said the boys werent ready yet.

When Jacob tossed the Mortal Jacob into the LIGHT WELL he created two entities on the Island and now there is a competition to see which one wins

Liz said...

What I've been thinking over since watching the episode is how Fake Mom manipulated MIB to kill him, much like Jacob manupulated Ben. Which leads me to wonder what this implication means for Ben as a character? I hope he doesn't replace MIB/Smokey/Flocke etc. I'd love to see Ben redeemed [on some level] in the end.

Florin Milea said...

I liked this episode. It wasn't perfect but...
This week we learned the origin of Smokey-O and how is he able to take on the visual form of people. I think we know what the ghosts are plus the wells and the donkey wheel.

An island with the essence of life, regeneration A Not So Crazy Mother after all and that which was under my eyes that the MiB had to be the black rock male in the cave.

We have a Biblical sort of picture of Jacob and Esau and a conniving mother. It doesn’t stop there, we have Prometheus and the fire chapter. The island is perhaps located in the Mediterranean Sea? People are dressed like ancient Greeks or Israelis.

MiB runs with the ghost of his mother like Ben. He kills his mother just like Kate killed her father.

I didn't liked the idea of Eve killing the mother, she could've died in birth, and we didn't see her killing the Others. Oh, I got to go. More later but good posts esp cdstateman.

crashriprock said...

they are the call sheets and they are spoilers. not much of spoilers but none the less.

crashriprock said...

here is another thing to concider

In one timeline Claires baby is born on the Island ans id taken off.

In the other timeline her baby is born off island......

and thats all I want to say about that

Steve said...

Hi Mike, look who's back! I hope you don't take anything I am saying personally, I'm not trying to attack your point of view, just like to offer alternatives :).

Now, I grant you the possibility that the MIB and smokey are two different entities, but I still don't think that is the case (since it was a special circumstance that released the smoke cloud). Given that, I still don't get why everyone seems to be on the "MIB is pure evil" train (ok, I guess the podcast, touche). Yes, he has killed some of our favourite losties. He has killed a bunch of people. That said, who hasn't? Looking at our group of 6 + Kate, there's a pretty big list of names (and nameless people) that have died through their direct action. Just to name some:

Jack: The Marshal (mercy killing), tried to kill Locke (pulled the trigger, no bullet), refused to operate on an innocent child (Ben), and a good 4 Dharma initiative members that had done nothing wrong except be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sayid: I don't think I need to go into him, but aside from the torture, we have all of the people Ben told him to kill (who may or may not have done anything wrong at all).

Sawyer: The biggest would be Frank Duckett and Anthony Cooper, both in cold blood (no reason for Frank, Anthony was already bound). Then you have Tom after he had already surrendered.

Kate: Wayne (her bio dad). Again, pretty cold blooded.

Locke: Not too much actually, though Boone died both due to his telling him to climb, and not telling anyone what happened.

Sun/Jin: Jae Lee (didn't kill him directly, but forced the death), Luke, Matthew (during the other's coming into camp)

Hurley: Well, other than the deck collapsing (albeit not his fault) there is the whole running Ryan Price down with the car thing. Ryan had just shot the ground instead of killing his friends, so for all we know, there was no mortal danger.

Essentially, everyone we know and love has made mistakes, or killed people because THEY thought they should die (and not in the heat of a gunfight). Now we are judging Adam, who is doing the exact same thing (killing for his own purposes) as being pure evil?

I don't think it's that simple. I'm not going to say Adam is good, because I don't think there is a good guy. I think the question of good and evil is naive, in fact, every character on this show is merely human, and acting out of their own self interest. Adam wants to get off the island, and after 2000 years, is getting rather impatient (not to mention pissed at what's been done to him). Jacob is terrified of death, and doesn't understand people (when has he ever spent time with real people?), so implements his own rules (such as not allowing people to truly die, hence the ghosts).

In the end, I think the only character that really knew what was at stake was Eve, and we can't even be sure of that. She certainly didn't explain much to her "sons" before dying. For all we know Jacob really believes the world will end if Adam leaves, when in fact that isn't the case at all. I do think being "protector" gives you access to the powers of the "light", which would explain how a small woman was able to wtfpwn the village and well.

calbhach said...

I haven't read all the comments, so maybe some1 has already said it, but here goes an idea.

Maybe the whole "people is bad" / "people is good" thing is behind the fact that people can't get pregnant in the island. If a baby is born in the island, then he could be raised as Jacob and Adam were, so that baby wouldn't be a proof of goodness o badness in people. Perhaps it is just another rule made up so Jacob and Adam can keep arguing about people's nature as we saw in season 5's the incident.

gnni4 said...

Just a thought...
Isn't a security system a protector?

crashriprock said...

Why did BIB refer to the others as his people?

Why was the BIB the only one who saw his mothers ghost?

Is it because he was his real mothers son?

gnni4 said...

Does MIB have a fondness for Claire because she is a bit simple minded and that reminds him of his brother? He did seem to protect his brother Jacob when they were kids, Jacob wasn't like him, he seemed a bit naive.

crashriprock said...

In the Book of Genesis, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the tree of knowledge (occasionally, the tree of conscience, was a tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:9). God directly forbade Adam (Eve having not yet been created) to eat the fruit of this tree. A companion tree, the Tree of Life, was in the garden, also. A serpent tempted Eve, who was aware of the prohibition, to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:1-6). The serpent had suggested to Eve that eating the fruit would make one wise. Eve and then Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and they became aware of their nakedness (Genesis 3:6-7). After discovering their disobedience, God banished the couple from the garden in order to deny them access to the Tree of Life which would give them immortality. God cursed both the snake and the ground, obliging Adam to survive through agriculture "by the sweat of his brow." He told the woman that her childbirth pains would be greatly increased and that the man would rule over her. God set a guard about the garden to protect the tree of life from Adam, Eve, and their descendants. (Genesis 3:14-24)

crashriprock said...

I think this last line bears repeating.

God set a guard about the garden to protect the tree of life from Adam, Eve, and their descendants. (Genesis 3:14-24)

Pat said...

Sadly I wasn't able to read every comment so I don't know if it was touched on or if people just find it less important. But I have had these two thoughts eating away in my brain.

First off, and it doesnt matter too much, but did anyone notice the sounds of the game when EVE was holding it right before she was stabbed. It sure sounded a lot like the sounds the black smoke makes now. That tika tika were the stones inside the box and I'm 98% sure its the same noise.

Second and this is a WILD prediction but what if replacements have already been chosen. I get this based on events that happened last night. But Jacob drank the drink which supposedly made him the new Protector. Well Richard just happened to drink the same drink. And MIB was the one who killed the previous protector. Just like Ben did.
Am I alone in left field when I propose that:
Richard=Jacob
Ben=MIB

Candidate said...

@ Jackson
Although I've been on board w/ most of your comments,
I gotta disagree w/you on the link you posted.
I didn't think it was a good read. I thought that posted recap (Not Mikes) was rushed and poorly written. It was a typical tangent of some wanabe story writer turned critic. Those types of skeptical recaps are exactly what drove me to join this blog. As I said before I can see why some didn't like this ep but throughout most of this final season just about all eps have gotten negative press reviews such as the ep Sundown. (Which I thought was amazing.) When I saw that ep get slammed I felt those typical cheap reviews wrecked my Day After Lost Day... But I suppose its always good to have other points of view

to all
I've posted this before but Darlton doesn't have to proove they had a plan or anything else to me...they've already prooven themselves far and beyond the call of duty.


I dont know if I can buy into Fake Mom being a form of smoke monster (going into the light to wreak havoc on the well and (the original others?) I gotta say when MIB first saw the smoke from accros the island, I thought it was the beginning of a volcanic eruption but I quickly was course corrected.
I am thinking that CDstedman could be onto something w/ his Smokey theory. The smoke monster doesn't use the actual bodies as discussed in last weeks comments.

As for the scene w/ Jack Kate in underwear and than John Locke afterwards I have a question. Was that first scene w/just Jack and Kate new footage? It seemed like it to me. The scene w/ Locke was definately an old clip... I too thought it was an odd edit and sort of took away some of the emotion of the scene where Jacob is saying goodbye to the only 2 people he knows. IMHO

My puzzle for this post is Poler

Rene said...

@Justin6case: I really think its significant that the Others village was destroyed in such a "Smokey" way. And I also think its significant that MIB didnt seem like such a "Bad" guy, in fact you felt some what sorry for him. And also the fact that only he say the ghost of Claudia while Jacob did not, even though she stated to BIB that she was "his mother" I have no real theory other than to think that a "Long Con" is in store for the ending of LOST.

crashriprock said...

When have we ever seen oldSmokey destroy anything with fire?

The village was burned before Jacob tossed the mortal in the Light well and by doing so seperated Flame into Light and Smoke

Rene said...

I guess I meant the way the people were all scattered and killed when I said destroy. There was nothing shown to us that the Crazy Mother was capable of that, let alone filling the well. Im just thinking it was something Smokeyesque!

Mike V. said...

For an episode that a lot of people hated, man you guys are on a posting tear!!! :-) lol I'll do what I can in limited time.

@Gnni - Nice on MOTO! lol I dunno about the LIGHT being midichlorians. I see the "LIGHT" as an explanation of the ENERGY SOURCE beneath the Island which we have known about since season 2! (at least....we did have compasses pointing wrong directions in season 1 also. Stuff like that makes me excited to rewatch this show when we're all done!)

Yep...good point on Jacob. I agree he is just as flawed as everyone else. But then again...he may not be trying to prove that HE is the exception to the rule...he's trying to prove that MAN is inherently good. Jacob was already damaged goods when his mother was killed at birth! As I mentioned in the blog and again above....MIB discussed how MOTO "burned them all"....smokey doesn't burn people! But I agree..there was more to that scene than meets the eye. And I, too, speculated that it was smokey. Not sure about the fake villages but your guess is as good as anyone's....i think in various generations of others...we see them living in tents and looking like hillbillies...it wasn't until Ben decided after the purge to move everyone into the barracks that they appeared more civilized. Are you seriously going to sympathize with the SMOKE MONSTER!? I'm fine with sympathizing with the Man in Black and how rough a life he had (just like Jacob)....but for what MIB has become...or what Jacob unleashed....SMOKEY has proven that he is up to NO GOOD. And Darlton have stressed this too. Remember..this is 2000 years later (which was confirmed in Jorge's podcast apparently)...that's a lot of time to sit and stew and turn EVIL! We'll see how it goes.

Mike V. said...

@Liz - Good comparisons....but I'm hoping that this story ends with seeing the END of the Smoke Monster. That would seem like a fitting end based on how this season is going. We'll see!

@Florin - All good insights on the episode...in answer to your question...maybe the Island was INITIALLY in the Mediterranean? I mean, we know it's in the South Pacific most of the time the LOSTIES are trying to get there...but Richard got to it from the Atlantic, as did the Nigerian Plane. But this was all prior to possibly MIB "moving" the Island with that wheel. Of course, who knows if that is what caused the island to initially move. All we know is that area was FROZEN at some point! (i still say when Dez blew the hatch)

@Crash - Ahhh yes...don't post the call sheets! lol Actually...if the call sheet was for this PAST episode that just aired. I'm fine with you posting that now. I just don't want to see call sheets for eps that didn't air. Some idiot at tvguidemagazine.com keeps posting spoilers in non-spoilerish headlines with no warning. He's driving me crazy. So, I already know some characters that will be showing up in coming eps. Then again, I assumed they would anyway. Yeah...Claire's baby will most likely be born OFF Island in the Sideways timeline. Not sure where we're going with this. But I still think it would be cool if for some reason Claire got in a helicopter with Aaron just to make Desmond's vision come true lol

Mike V. said...

@Steve - No prob! I wasn't taking offense, just throwing some stuff out there too! Sorry if I came off harsh. Don't forget Sun shot Pickett's Wife Colleen! lol Like I said...I acknowledge that they're all flawed characters and all have sympathetic stories (including MIB and Jacob). But I think the moment that MIB became Smokey (for whatever reason)...the game changed. Like we've been saying now...he's had 2000 years to stew over this...as black smoke...the apparent embodiment of EVIL. Whatever he was..he's not anymore. He is something that the Island Protectors have been trying to keep at bay for who knows how long? And now is the closest it has ever been to getting FREE from "protection"....what does this signify for the rest of the world? Let me refer to Star Trek II when I say "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one" Smokey is up to no good...and if it's MIB in control..he may not even know what he's ultimate dream of getting off of the island would do. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore...but I think the producers are making it very clear that SMOKEY (and I keep saying Smokey to make everyone happy) is the bad guy of this story and especially for this final VOLUME of the story.

@Calbhach - ahhhhh I didn't follow the first part but I like the idea that Jacob initiated the rule that woman can't get pregnant on the Island as part of a CONTROL in their game. Very interesting indeed!

@gnni - security system = protector....yes, but who are the people that said it was a security system? THOSE infected by the black smoke. And then Rousseau repeated what she heard to Jack and crew in the season 1 finale. It might not be true at all.

Mike V. said...

@Crash - Why does only Hurley see ghosts? What do only Sawyer and Desmond see Ghost Jacob? Is it because they're all the sons of Claudia? (yes I'm not actually asking that question lol) You're not gonna sell me on this theory! But I'm waiting to see if someone else buys into it :-) lol

@Gnni - I think Clare somehow reminds MIB if HIS mother, just like she commented to Kate. Of course, that was all part of his long con to get them all on the sub. So I dunno lol

@Crash - interesting on the last line of the Genesis excerpt.

@Pat - Totally didn't hear that sound of the game, but I'll check it out! You're obviously not alone in considering Richard could be the next Jacob because I brought it up in the blog! Of course, I didn't really get behind the theory, but I brought it up as a possibility! lol As for Ben being MIB, I just don't know. I still hope we're not going to go through another "LOOP" of things and that's how the story ends. I hope some FINALITY comes at the end of the story. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

As you can tell by my posts, I'm not too bright when analyzing this show. I guess you could say I'm part of the popcorn crowd that doesn't analyze too much, so whatever the producers show me wows me all the same. That being said, I positively adored this episode! I was on the verge of tears by the end. A loving family torn apart and Jacob was now all alone. I think it's obvious that regardless of whatever powers or special qualities they might have, these three were all human, and like humans had the potential for both good and bad in them. That's why even though Eve was the protector of the island she could kill and lie. Last time I checked, killing and lieing were not qualities of being good. Yet those two things run rampant on LOST. But I digress.

That being said, I think the reason that "Mother" favored BIB was because of how he was born. She loved him because he was special (meaning the chosen one and also because of his personality). His birth was unexpected - a surprise - so naturally he was the one that should grow up to do great things. or so she thought (he was the chosen one to replace her). Number 2, because his original mother, Claudia, was not expecting him and did not have a name for him, she thus had less attachment to him, this lonely woman, Eve, who could not have children herself felt she had more ownership of this child (BIB). As it turns out, Jacob was always the more sentimental one, vying to be mother's favorite, because he cared for her attention, approval, and love more than BIB. That's why he stayed with her after BIB left. It was his chance to be bumped up one in her heart. Back to what I said before, Eve loved BIB more because he was special. He was more curious, less obediant, wanted more than what he knew or had, and pursued that desire. he was more defiant...more corruptible, and essentially, her savior! He was the one that was going to free her from this endless eternity (which as many shows/movies/books have explored, is not what its cracked up to be). She just didn't know how at first. At first, she thought he was going to be her replacement. But finally, she realized it was Jacob all along that was going to replace her. But it was still BIB that ended her eternity. That's why she said "Thank you" at the end.

Wait a second. If Eve was the one that made it so they can't kill each other, don't her rules die with her? Or do changes/rules stay in place even after their creator passes away? Interesting...

continued in second post
-Lauren

crashriprock said...

Mike
where were the ones who see ghosts concieved?

Mike V. said...

@Candidate - I agree on the article that Jackson referenced. I wasn't a big fan of it lol But I read through it! I appreciate you turning to the LOST Addicts Blog where even on its worst day, things are always SUNNY here on the day after! LOL Totally agree on Darlton. I don't even care if they made it up as the went (I don't think they possibly could have 100%)...I've been entertained from Day 1 until 3.5 hours before the end and counting! That sounds to me like success! I think I discuss how Smokey doesn't use the bodies in EVERY week's comments because I always read someone saying that Smokey is "INHABITING" Locke's body which is absolutely false lol So I'm always correcting. But yeah...Smokey as separate entity holds some weight and there are lots of people that feel that way after this ep. I'm back and forth on it, so hopefully the writers realize that they have to clarify this in the end game. I don't think there was any new footage there with Jack and Kate. I remember all of that footage...but totally agree that it wasn't needed for the scene. I'm fine with it though.

@Rene - I know that wasn't towards me...but LONG CONS are popular on LOST, so we'll see! Of course, we already saw a LONG Con played out this season with Flocke...could there be a con within a con? We shall see!

@Crash - Like I said...we haven't seen Smokey destroy anything with fire. I'm guessing that wasn't a question to me though.

Anonymous said...

Anyway, I think that the Smoke Monster is evil incarnate, but not MIB, though they are the same entity. I think that when he became the Smoke Monster he basically lost his humanity, having been stripped from his body, and thus lost the often equated as humane qualities of remorse and regret. So the Smoke Monster has the goals/intentions of the original MIB, because he is MIB, but has none of his original goodness. Family tragedy in mythological proportions. lol

SO that's what I got from this episode. The story of good and evil, light and dark, is as old as history. That's why I think that a lot of people were disappointed with this episode. It's a concept that's been explored through and through and it would be hard to think up a mind-boggling twist on it. That's also why I think the time-travelling aspect of LOST, a more modern concept, intrigues people the most. It's no wonder that the episodes The Constant and The Variable are crowd favorites.

Anyhoo. Since I have not been reading this blog since the beginning, I totally did not see the origin of the Adam and Eve skeletons coming. I love this episode a lot and its among my faves <3. what ruined it for me is those stupid clips of naked Jack and Kate interjecting the most emotional scene. I mean seriously, they added nothing and ruined the moment. Who wants to think of the turbulations of their relationship when we are viewing a key scene that really has nothing to do with them. Anyway, like I said, I loved this episode and I was on the verge of tears. Poor Jacob, lost his family and left to bear a large burden on his own. Left with the sadness of not being loved equally by Mother and the guilt of forcing a fate worse than death on his brother. How will this tragedy end hundreds of years later?

Through the Losties, Jacob will eliminate the Smoke Monster, who was once his brother but really isn't anymore (having lost his humanity and been filled with the evils of the world). Jacob's ghost will cease to exist, with his replacement finally in place and taking over. either the cycle will continue or the island will also somehow be eliminated because somehow some characters will eliminate the need for its existance (meaning that pocket of light).

You know, I feel very enlightened after this episode. If there's one thing I get, it's internal conflict, clashing emotions, and the depths of the heart. There's nothing I love more than a story about love (particularly familial).

-Lauren

Mike V. said...

@Crash - Sawyer was conceived by his parents who both died horrible deaths as a result of Anthony Cooper's meddling. Hurley was born to his parents who separated but are back together again. We never met Desmond's parents. And yes...that could be an interesting reveal in the final hours.

crashriprock said...

BIB why cant Jacob see you?
Claudia Because Im dead.
Claudia -Id like to show you something

BIB Show me what?

Calusia --Where you came from.

davidsalako said...

We were and are still creeped out by Smokey's appearance and mannerisms so similar and yet strangely different from the late John Locke's.
Imagine what Jacob's shock was like the first time Smokey appears and interacts with him as his departed twin?
No one to give him any answers or explanations...unless his anointing as "Protector" gives him access to all THE ISLAND's secrets?

Mike V. said...

@Lauren - Just because you don't overanalyze doesn't make you "not too bright!" It actually might just make you smarter! lol I think some of us really can overthink this show at times, but it does lend itself to overanalyzation the same! I'm glad you adored the episode. I'm glad that there are some people that really liked it as I did. Yep, it all boils down to them all having been human with good and bad qualities (ahh the Dogen Scale lol) Yeah...i felt the same way about EVE favoring BIB...the fact that Claudia wasn't "thrilled" about his arrival. Nice thoughts on MIB being corruptible into being her savior. It would seem that maybe the rules carry on after the people die. After all, isn't Richard still immortal after Jacob's death? Don't know for sure, but I think we just assume since he still can't kill himself. Yeah, I think it's safe to say that SMOKEY is evil.... but MIB as a human was not. The Constant and The Variable are AWESOME episodes, don't get me wrong (Constant is in my top 2 with Looking Glass)....and I love the time travel stories...but I think I always knew LOST would boil down to a battle of good vs evil in some form or another. Maybe we didn't know it would be a "SAVE THE WORLD/UNIVERSE" story....even though it makes sense.....but I think we knew that Jack and crew would need to do something in the end to cause an outcome for the better. Well maybe not everyone. Some people refuse to believe that Jack is the hero of the story! lol Anyway...I think once they showed us that flash forward at the end of season 3...we realized that this show was not just about them getting off of the island. It was something bigger than that...and none of us had expected that before then. I'm rambling again! lol

Anyway, I think that the Smoke Monster is evil incarnate, but not MIB, though they are the same entity. I think that when he became the Smoke Monster he basically lost his humanity, having been stripped from his body, and thus lost the often equated as humane qualities of remorse and regret. So the Smoke Monster has the goals/intentions of the original MIB, because he is MIB, but has none of his original goodness. Family tragedy in mythological proportions. lol

nice writeup on the episode and your thoughts thus far!

Mike V. said...

@Crash - okay...i think I get where you're going with it, but I still don't buy it! lol 2 kids, one dead mother....EVE takes over. If it ends up being any differently, I'll totally give you credit!

@David - Yeah...I'd love to see that scene David. Would be something nice to put in the finale wouldn't you say?

Another meeting to go to...ugh 103 comments already!?!!?

MJ said...

Richard - I don't consider it 'fate' whem someone is lying and manipulating to create the outcome they want. but while reading your post I could not help but think of Ben 'Fate is one fickle b*tch' .

Some sites are calling her Voldemom - the one that cannot be named. LOL Thought that was funny.

I didn't expect any answers outright - but I expected some clarity - and did not get much. I wish they had made Voldemoms intentions/beliefs more clear. She killed an entire village. She lied outright to her boys. Why does she KNOW that people are bad. Without any substance or color to her reasons it's hard to care about her and why she did what she did. Even if they just told us WHY she believes what she believes it would have been better than 'because I say so'. Just like having Richard state that he believed he was going to hell even though we already knew the island wasn't hell - it just explains his thought process. Leaving it all so muddy makes me feel ambivelent to the whole thing at this point. Especially hard since this is supposed to be the time of answers for all our years invested. They really should have given us more of a feel of what motivated Eve.

Anonymous said...

Something just hit me. Another question that will probably never be answered:

Why does Kate always want to run? We learned from that tape she made as child she's felt that way since she was a child. Has this question been answered already?

Personally, I agree with Mikael. She is flawed and probably irredeemable. I really hope she is shown in a more likable ligt in the finale. If the producers made Jack an intrigueing lovable hero again, I'm sure they can do something about Kate.

btw, I totally agree that the episode on the origins of Jack's tattoos was the worst episode ever. And speaking of Jack and finale expectations, I hope he somehow makes up with his father. I also hope Kate ends up with Jack. She is something he can fix forever. Sawyer has to end up with Juliet. He'll stabalize as a person with her because she is so nice, smart, and sweet. Reconciliations all around! I totally want a happy ending, but also a little sacrifice so it doesn't seem so contrived. I really hope the finale meets EVERYONE'S expectations, even haters of previous episodes.

sorry for the random post -_-'

-Lauren

crashriprock said...

Mike
Just rewatch it and keep in mind that Fmother didnt want either to know about anything from across the see.
Then pay close attention to the part when Fmother says to BIB that
Jacob cannot lie.
And to the parts where MIB says he does not belong on the Island and White Jacob says he does because it is his home.

There was only suppose to be one

One gaurdian to keep man away.

And that gaudian let the bad out of the well and gave it a corporal self when he through a moratl into the light

IE good and evil were one
now there is one good and one evil.

gnni4 said...

I think this was said beautifully, thank you Mike!

"Anyway, I think that the Smoke Monster is evil incarnate, but not MIB, though they are the same entity. I think that when he became the Smoke Monster he basically lost his humanity, having been stripped from his body, and thus lost the often equated as humane qualities of remorse and regret. So the Smoke Monster has the goals/intentions of the original MIB, because he is MIB, but has none of his original goodness."

davidsalako said...

I concur! Well said Mike V.!

crashriprock said...

Fmother made white Jacob to promise to never go in the well.
When Jacob asked if he would die if he did Fmother said no something worse. MIB did not choose to go into the well Jacob threw him in out of anger and that something worse was released. But it could not leave the island until Jacob was gone. Because White Jacob is the last of the Flame unless there is a replacement.

MJ said...

The article about the rogue satellite can be found on pretty much any news site if any of you were interested. Thanks for trying though Mike

Anonymous said...

I don't remember who was posting about the kids hair - but they probably put too much gel in it that day on set and the lighting was different. It's the same kid and I doubt that it's really a different color.

Lauren said...

Here's what I kept thinking... I think Eve, Smother, what ever we're calling her, planned the entire thing. I think she told Jacob that something terrible would happen if he went into the light, something worse than death, because she knew that he would eventually avenge her death by throwing the "chosen son" into the light, just the way that SHE planned it. Am I crazy? I think she knew if she went to the cave where MIB was living that he would kill her, and I think that's what she wanted as we know because she thanked him not once but twice for doing so. What if Jacob is not, never was, the protector of the island, but MIB truly is. Maybe Jacob just thinks he is. Maybe the reason that MIB had to kill Jacob, and the reason that he is obviously trying to kill the losties is because he is trying to protect the light. We know that he was born with an innate sense of how things are done, he just "knew". Does he know what needs to be done to go "home" a.k.a back to the light? I dunno...

And I don't believe that Smother was part Smoke Monster, I believe however that she was possibly able to summon the smoke monster to destroy the village. Or I think it's safe to say that if we all believe that this woman was able to conjure up a storm to bring in a ship, she could probably also conjure up a power strong enough to destroy a village.

Also, I believe that the light that we were introduced to in the cave is now the pool that lies in the temple. Wouldn't that make sense that they would build a temple to protect this precious light? Wouldn't it make sense that now the light is gone, which is why the pool either didn't look the same, looked dark, or didn't work the same? I'm just throwing ideas out there....

And the last thing I kept thinking of was either Charlotte or Daniel Faraday who mentioned the light a few seasons ago, how it was abnormal and didn't fall the same way. I can't remember exactly how he/she put it. The light is obviously central to the story at this point and those two characters (Charlotte and Daniel) were employed by Charles Whidmore. I think it's safe to say that whidmore is interested in the light, and only the light.

Dan said...

OK, so Adam/MIB's body is dead, but his spirit "exists" to carry out his will as the smoke monster and as other dead people (Jack's dad, Locke).

But doesn't that first scene in which he appears (sitting next to Jacob, watching the ship come in) take place after his death? More broadly speaking, are any of the scenes of MIB as an adult supposed to be taking place after his death. If so, explain that one away.

Anonymous said...

@dissatified people

I thought the plot holes were filled in nicely, which is why I'm totally satisfied with this episode. Like Mike said, we got lots of answers. and even though there may be questions regarding the overall time line of events, I have faith that the producers/creators/writers, whose names escape me, portrayed everything as historically and chronologically accurate in regards to the island's and the real world's history. Afterall, we are given very few actual dates and a lot can happen in even just a single year.

I remember someone commenting on Eve's supposedly ambiguous intentions. Personally, I thought they were as clear as daylight. She lied and killed because special people need to be raised in specific conditions so they grow up to belive certain things and act in a certain way. Jacob and MIB are the way they are, not just because of their destined personalities/attitudes, but also because of the environment they grew up in. Eve was trying to ensure her replacement was as "good" as possible. So she made sure, or at least tried her best, to prevent outside influences from interfering.

Oh God, there is still so much I could say about this episode! But I have to get back to life. Things to do, places to go yada yada...

-Lauren (IS TOTALLY PSYCHED FOR THE FINALE!)

MJ said...

Article with mark Pelligrino. Not spoilery. Interesting how they keep the actors reading for parts in the dark about even the characters name. Then after they are hired they give them not too much 411 for the future.

davidsalako said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
davidsalako said...

@Dan - Smokey was able to appear as different dead people before Jacob was killed. It was able to take on MIB form to Jacob just as it has been able to take on the form of other dead folk. After Jacob was killed it can only appear in John Locke form or as Smokey.

Anonymous said...

Okay a few random thoughts:

The island has special healing powers and what Eve did to Adam down in the cave probably could have killed him if he wasn't special. Maybe time (weeks, had passed) before Adam woke up from his coma.

I think it is more likely that Eve was something like the smoke monster, maybe it is different for each person and allowed her to destroy the village. I have watched the episode a few times and think it is strange how she is standing "behind" the ladder and how Adam didn't hear her climb down. If she did go into the cave of light, it would explain how she was able to give the warning to Jacob and Adam about something worse than death. Common logic says that someone had to take the swim for that knowledge to be gained. This would also lend itself as to why she thanked Adam twice for killing her. Maybe since she passed the protector role onto Jacob, she was now vulnerable to being killed but not by just anyone. Maybe since Adam had been so close to the light source, maybe he was powerful enough to kill Eve? If the temple pool stems from the same water as the light source, then maybe Ben's rebirth in it allowed him to kill Jacob. Maybe Jacob was able to be killed since he had Richard drink the wine. Maybe the original blessing that Eve put on the wine lasted until MIB broke the bottle. Maybe anyone could have tried to and killed Jacob, but maybe the MIB stopped trying after 1800+ years. And yes, I know that is a lot of maybes, lol.

Also, I have thought of the candidate differently for some time now. Not a candidate to replace Jacob (or not solely), but a candidate to end the game between Jacob/MIB and to put an end to the "progress" loop and give the island an "ending". I think Richard could be the next protector of the island with Jack being the final candidate to bring a conclusion to "Lost".

Richard said...

Mike,
Is the only reason smokey is using Locke's body double to con the losties? He was MIB for millenia. btw, Ben killed Locke and made the body available for his (IMHO) bud smokey.

When smokey was talking about being a man once it was if he identified with MIB directly/personally. When Flocke was talking about Locke so forcefully(although negatively) it was as if he could really identify with Locke's actual feelings. Taken together it's as if smokey takes on or feels things about the person of whom he is copying.

If that is true than smokey was likely a being before MIB was pushed into the gold light by Jacob. In turn, if that is true than maybe Eve could "conjure" up smokey to destroy the others. I still think it was interesting how she displayed characteristics of both boys, although the more I think about it, probably moreso, BIB.

Penner said...

Nice Recap - I go here first & you're busy today as expected!

As other with the other comments, this was an exciting but also a frustrating episode. There was a good side & a bad side to it. I hated at first because I thought some of their answers were a cheap way out, but they have some much to address I accepted some of them.
I did want to learn about the island's "purpose" and the light covered that. But there was an ambiguity in some of the answers (as they said there would be for some). The explain why the wells & donkey wheel were added but not always telling How some things were done. That made it hard for me....We need to assume that MIB went back to add the wheel but why was it frozen et, how did she kill all those people (I won't try to speculate on any of these).

Frankly I didn't care too much about the Adam & Eve skeletons when I saw them in season 1. In the grand scheme of things, this was one question that didn't intrigue me but I know now they are important part of the story. By the way is the how time moves slowly on the island part of the reason why their bodies haven't decomposed as much?

Here is a point that I hadn't seen yet, during the time travel flashes, after the one when Locke falls down the well to turn the wheel (ok not really right after since we had to wait a year for season 5 to start)they show Sawyer holding the rope & there is no well but we do see the statue there. So we know that was built before Jacob & family was there.

A theory....
If the island is on the bottom of the ocean is the 'light' protected down there & there is no need for a candidate to protect it. That's why they all go to the sideway world at the end. Everyone gets to live & the island/world is safe. This would happens because of the sacrifice Desmond has to make.

I hope this isn't the case.

Namaste

Glenn R. said...

Hey Mike. Nice recap, as usual. I've been missing the interaction with you & everyone on this blog! So much to respond to in the last three episodes. I have to be honest and say that I felt disappointed with the last three episodes, in particular this one "Across the Sea."

Sometime soon, when I have time, I will put my feelings and thoughts into words, but lately I haven't had the time necessary to do a good job at that. But, having said all that, I'm willing to give Darlton the benefit of the doubt, and ultimately, I'm withholding judgment until I've seen the rest of the 3.5 hours.

Don't get me wrong, as I've been one of your biggest allies and a proponent of just relaxing and enjoying the show for what it is -- there is still lots of great material in the last three eps, and I'm still happy just to have the opportunity to watch this amazing show. But, I can't deny that part of me is still disappointed.

Glenn R. said...

Hey, Mike... I have an idea for you. After the show is over, I think you should have a post that is all about brainstorming every unanswered question from the show. So that we have a master list so to speak of all the issues, big or small, that were not resolved in the show.

Then, in another post, we take all those issues and rank them into 3 categories -- "Very Important" "Somewhat Important" or "Minor."

Then, each person who follows your blog who wants to will get a month or something to reflect on each of the unanswered questions, and then 30 days later, we all report back with a summary of how each of us as individuals would answer those questions -- in particular the "Very Important" ones. In other words, we each give our personal theories/take on how WE would answer those questions. Then we make them all public and have fun reading each others' interpretations of the unfinished parts of the show. Just a thought I had. What do you think? :-)

(I'm not saying we wouldn't be interacting on the blog during that 30 days -- just that we're each working individually on our personal theories, which we will all present at the same time later on...)

Anonymous said...

No props for those of us who guessed MIB and Jacob were twins or at least brothers?

What if the Dharma folk made the frozen donkey wheel? I mean they seemed to be some pretty smart and scientific people. Or smoke monster MIB could have manipulated them into making it.

Holly said...

@Crash - I read the 23 AD reference somewhere too...23, hmmm, familiar number.

I'm still calling Eve "Smother"....I'm taking credit for that one :-)

Glenn R. said...

Don't know if this is verified, but I read somewhere else that on the script for "Across the Sea' it dated the first scene as being in the year 23 A.D.!

It will be interesting to see if Jorge Garcia confirms that on his podcast this week.

Mike V. said...

OMG - 20 comments in a 1.5 hours! No way I can keep up with this guys! lol It's time to get into "if I've already commented on the subject, I'll defer to that" mode! lol

@MJ - Love Voldemom! Good points on Eve. I don't really know how to argue them right now lol Just seems like it's an endless cycle and whatever motivated Jacob had motivated Eve in the past and the person before her (her mother maybe?) and the person before her...and the BIG BANG before that etc.... I hear you on wanting to know more behind it. Don't know what to say about that except that maybe there is hope in the final 3.5 hours! lol

@Lauren - I don't know if it's answer we need as much as a character defining trait with Kate. Yeah, it would be nice to see Kate more likable in the final hours. She's been so distant from her former boy interests with just the hopes of getting Claire off of the Island. Based on her reaction to seeing Jack alive, it seems like we may finally be moving towards something there. Of course, it would seem like the gloomy mood of what has happened recently on the Island will overshadow the rest of the Island story. Anything we may see play out there would be in the form of heroism or sacrifice. Perhaps the Sideways story is where we may see some likable traits...for instance - Jack and Kate sharing a moment somehow. (yes...I'm purposefully skipping the Kate/Sawyer possibilities. My thought is..we've already seen this in sideways and we'll most likely see Sawyer pair up with Juliet in Sideways and Jack and Kate pair up. But we'll see!)

Totally agree we need a Jack and Christian scene in some form before the end of the show. This is one thing I am truly hoping to see in the finale. I've always expected it to be part of the series finale and it better be there!! They teased us in season 4 with the off island encounter...i want the real deal now! Nothing random about the post...I was pretty much thinking along the same lines as you as I was writing my stuff before reading through yours entirely. It all ended the same way! lol

@Crash - I'm gonna rewatch it when I get a chance. What you're saying makes sense. I get it. I just don't think that's where they were going with the story!

@Gnni - You're welcome I think...but that wasn't me that said that! Was there another Mike that posted? lol Unless I accidentally copied/pasted it as I copy and paste comments into my email to make it easier to respond to it all. Anyway, I agree that it was well said! CRAP...I just checked...that was Lauren...I accidentally copied and pasted it into my comments...SORRY LAUREN. Give her credit for that one!

crashriprock said...

I just thought of something else.
If the Original MIB didnt finish building the Donkey Wheel...

Who did?

AUStarwars said...

Crash, well written analogy to Genesis..

I really still dont understand the hate for this episode..it was shot and told like a literary work of art, like the Bible, like other great works...a lot of it is metaphor and a potential allegorical history of the Island, not a literal one..would people rather it was shot like a history book, people would be bored..to me last night was all allegory

I am not saying I am totally on board with this season, I still feel this episode would have been better as the season opener or close to it

gnni4 said...

I got it.

MIB's name is:

Brother

These boys would have no idea that Brother is a noun, a thing and not a name, they would not think it is a strange name, because they had never seen or known another person besides themselves and their Fmother.

When Brother went to live with the others he must have lied and told them some story as to how he got there. If he had told them the truth, about some myserious woman killing his birth mother and raisig himself and his twin, the people would have gone wild trying to hunt her down and punish her. So perhaps they all called him Brother as well.

(trying to make the inkblot make sense!)

gnni4 said...

LAUREN, well said. Sorry to have credited Mike for your comment.

Anonymous said...

Wow! This must be some kind of 1st day after a post comment record! I cant even keep up. At least I will have some good reading on the way home from work.

In regard to the article I linked to, I thought it was funny because it was such a stark contrast to this blog. Just goes to show that alot of stuff that publicity is crap. Too bad this blog doesnt get the hits or recognition that it deserves. As least, and I am sure I can speak for most people who post here, the this blog and Mike V certainly get the due appreciation which it deserves!

-Jackson

AUStarwars said...

My main question is what is Jacob trying to prove? MIB clearly said that the others were evil, cruel, etc., and to Jacobs point of view they may have corrupted him, but why would Jacob want to constantly bring people here? I guess:

Jacob wants the next candidate to WANT to take over, because he was forced to and was second fiddle to MIB..thats all i can think of at this point..he wants the candidate to come to that conclusion on his own..

but you still have to explain to me:

1. The Time Travel
2. The Temple
3. The Dharma Initiative

The Powers that Be created the mess that happened to the above, and is there enough time to answer any or all of them?

crashriprock said...

Ok if fake mom is Voldemom
does that make the blonde kid
Jacob Slytherin?

lol

crashriprock said...

Ive reread some of my posts and want to try and claify something.

I claudia had never been in a shipwreck and had her baby off the Island. She would have only had one kid and it would have been the dark haired kid.

Lauren said...

@crashriprock

Why do you believe that she would have only had one child if she had given birth off the island? Because one has blond hair? Because she didn't know she was having two babies? This predated sonograms by a long shot. I don't really buy it, I feel like she was pregnant with twins, I don't think that one child is an immortal being. If that's the case then which one of the "candidates" is immortal? Or which one of them is going to be popped out on an island? And if one IS immortal, which one is it?

If there is one thing that I can be certain about with this show it's that the obvious never seems to be the answer... life is complicated and so is this show.

Mike V. said...

@MJ - Cool on the article. I've seen it a few times now too. Just glad I have FIOS!

@Anonymous - Good point with the hair color changing

@Lauren - Interesting idea and that might be where Crash has been going with his theory....but I just can't see the goal of the END OF LOST being something that would be going AGAINST our HEROES we've been following for 6 seasons. But you could be onto something with the fact that maybe Eve had a plan for MIB and he played right into it. Interesting idea that that cave is now the pool in the temple...like they built the temple around it. very interesting! I went as far as to say that the water in the temple could be somehow linked to this light...but never went as far as thinking it could be the same. That actually makes a lot of sense! Daniel talked about how the light didn't scatter quite right or something. Definitely interesting to bring that up after this episode!

@Dan - Yes any scene that we have seen of MIB besides this episode happen chronologically after he has become the smoke monster. Not sure what you want to be explained? I'm still in the boat that the Man in Black is the MAIN SOUL in charge of smokey. He is just able to take the form of other dead bodies on the Island. I can be easily convinced the other way though. lol

@Lauren - well said statements to the dissatisfied! (the producers are Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse) and I can't wait for the finale either! (but can as it will be so sad when it's over)

@MJ - Did you ever post the link for the article with Mark Pelligrino? lol

@Anonymous with the few random thoughts - I don't think much time passed before Adam/MIB woke up. It seemed like Eve and Jacob were heading back from their trek to the LIGHT CAVE right before MIB killed Eve. But I guess i's possible. I still revert back to the fact that Eve had a BODY that was buried....so how could she be smokey? And also..the villagers were BURNED...not beaten up smokey style! The Richard/Jack theory is quite possible! I was kinda pondering something like that myself today too (obviously lol)

Mike V. said...

@Richard - Yeah...Locke gave him access in season 5 to con Richard and Ben into doing things for him that got him to Jacob...got Ben to Kill Jacob. And it didn't hurt seeing Locke's face to help the LOSTIES gather in his camp even if they didn't completely trust him (anyway, that's how i see it) I think everything you mentioned below more proves that Smokey was in fact a bodiless MIB. It may have not been your intent though! lol Interesting idea on Eve possibly "summoning" smokey to do her dirty work...i still have an issue with them being BURNED though! lol But we have seen Smokey summoned before.
BTW...i'm hoping a Darlton podcast may put a lot of this to rest! They said they are definitely doing one this week. THE LAST ONE! :-(

@Penner - Thanks! I'm so busy that this is usually the only place I go! lol Sometimes I get to Doc Jensen though. I hear you on the "HOW"...i think this falls into the Midichlorian aspect of the writers' arguments....they don't want to get into the details. Actually, their latest comparison is that if they wanted us to give an explanation on how the Island works and blah blah blah....go watch the scene in The Matrix Reloaded when Neo talks to the Architect....if anyone recalls...that was the most boring scene of all 3 movies! And I'm sure people watched it 100 times and dissected it....but man it was rough! I recall comparing the Orientation Video (Swan) to that very scene....except for the fact that the Orientation video ROCKED!!! lol Anyway, as for the donkey wheel being frozen..draw your own conclusions but I still say it's when Desmond blew that hatch...(for more info...search for that phrase in the blog posting lol)
I think the fact that many of us became intrigued with Adam and Eve was because the producers told us we'd be able to see they had a plan since the beginning when they revealed it. And as for the body decomposition....i mentioned something similar in the blog posting with the TIME travel...and the unique island properties...and Jack being a spinal surgeon lol
I disagree that the well as built prior to Jacob and family being there. that was in 1974 wasn't it? Wait...i forgot it did flash to a time way in the past first. hmmmm good point. Did you like how I thought that through? Strange..because the STATUE was there then. Yikes..I'm gonna have to watch that stuff again to try and make sense of it all.

Interesting theory with the light being underwater. I have no idea!

Stevie said...

Great job recapping the episode. I will admit I got alittle bored during the episode but it was still definetely needed before the show is over.
I just wonder if the ending will have much more religious stuff in it than we thought?!

Mike V. said...

@Glenn - Thanks for the props and look forward to hearing your input on the past few eps!

Interesting idea for some END OF SERIES POSTS! I'll take it under advisement, but you might understand if I decide to take a little breather from the blogging for a bit, right? lol I'd hate to kill the momentum, but 18 straight weeks of this takes its toll! LOL We'll see how it goes! Maybe I'll ask for some commenter participation on something like that and you guys can send me stuff and I'll post it lol

@Anonymous - major props for those of "US" that guessed MIB and Jacob were brothers! lol I think it's been discussed so much since the end of season 5 that I guess I just took it for granted. I was already guessing when Claudia showed up on the island that she was carrying 2 children lol

Intersting idea with DHARMA finishing the wheel....it's possible! But I don't know if MIB would have been patient enough to wait almost 2000 years to finish that project! Then again...he's waited 2000 years to get to THIS moment where he's almost off of the island. (assuming that Smokey IS MIB's soul of course)

@Holly - Smother is a good one! I tried to do FMOTHER but it just didn't work! :-)

@Glenn - yeah a few people have mentioned that now. And apparently jorge has mentioned 2 Millenia on his podcast. I still need to listen though.

@Crash - questioned the donkey wheel completion in the blog as well.... and someone above just theorized on it too.

@AUStarwars - I agree that the episode was good...but i've mentioned that a few times now!

@Gnni - nice on MIB's name being Brother! I know you are serious...but I still think it's funny! lol

@Jackson - yeah this is insane...i can't keep up! Are you kidding me on HITS on this blog? It's out of control! It's been getting bigger and bigger every season since S3....if you google "LOST BLOG" it's up there around #3! I can't ask for much more than that. I owe it all to you guys!


OKAY....I really gotta go home....I'm done for now folks! Catch up with the rest of the comments later!

crashriprock said...

Lauren
I listed the reason earlier.

Maybe I saw a different show
maybe all I saw was symbolism and not just what was layed out in front of me. It just seems funny that a mother would not know she had twins even in the 1st century ad.

Dan said...

@davidsalaco - Thanks. So before Jacob's death, MIB was able to take his own form, as one of the many dead forms he took. But now he can only take Locke's form. How did Jacob's death change that?

@Mike V. - see davidsalaco's answer to my question (how MIB appears in his own body if he's been dead). This is just one of many questions I have. I know that everyone has questions, but sometimes it seems like mine are very basic ones that others seem to be taking for granted!

crashriprock said...

i meant to say was having

and one thing I left off the list was Claudia asking to see "HIM"

Gina said...

MIB is "Esau" in my book. The Jacob-MIB-mother relationship is just like the Biblical story of Jacob and Esau:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

And is the light a version of Hell? Would go along with the Island being Gehenna or Purgatory.

Lauren said...

@crash

no, no I didn't mean to be harsh or imply that you were watching another show, just trying to make a connection between this "immortal being" that was born on to the island for only one reason and the candidates. I love trying to figure out whats going on with this show, and I try to think though every theory cause I sure as h.e. double hockey sticks don't have it figured out! :-)

gnni4 said...

Crash,
it seems crazy, but there are still women giving birth that didn't even know that they were pregnant. I can fully believe that a woman could not know she was having twins. At the time Claudia was pregnant, it is possible that it was not even known yet that men had anything to do with the entire process. I'm guessing that the belief that the Earth was flat was quite popular and that it was commen knowledge that the Earth was the center of the Universe with The Sun revolving around it. It doesn't seem impossible to me that she may not have been fully aware of what was happening inside her own body.

Sorry, but I am not agreeing with you that a 2nd baby suddenly appeared within her womb.

crashriprock said...

This is interesting.

Claudia was the mother of Linus, who became the second Pope. Tradition has her the daughter of British King Caractacus, who was sent to Rome with his family in chains when he was defeated by Aulus Plautius. Released by Emperor Claudius, one of his daughters took the name Claudia, remained in Rome, was baptized, and is the Claudia mentioned in St. Paul's second letter to Timothy. Another tradition has her the daughter of Cogidubnus, a British ally of Claudius, who took the Emperor's name. Martial mentions a British lady, Claudia Rufina, and says she was married to his friend Aulus Pudens, a Roman senator. Another tradition has this senator the Pudens also mentioned in St. Paul's second letter to Timothy. Her feast day is August 7.

crashriprock said...

Ok so all that mothers intuition stuff Ive heard all my life was just crap.

davidsalako said...

The Dharma Initiative did not finish the Donkey Wheel. It was already in place by the time they got to THE ISLAND. The x-ray photo that Pierre Chang had in season 5's "The Variable" clearly showed the DW underneath or behind the rock they were drilling through. It may be a different episode but it was definitely in season 5.

crashriprock said...

My first post was

Now we need a Fmother flashback.

She said she came to the Island the same as Claudia

By Accident.

and why couldnt the Blond Jacob see his mothers ghost

why was he not able to lie

why did Fmother say she was mistaken and it was him all along?

These arent just words writers make up they have a reason
that is the same reason we still do not know what the BIB's name is.

He was the HIM Claudia was referring to when she said she wanted to see HIM

She appeared to HIM

she lead HIM to HIS people.

and it goes on...

Anonymous said...

@crashriprock

did you know that enough women can go through an entire pregnancy without knowing it that there is a tv show about it... "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant." And thats with modern knowledge and technology.

And you don't believe that Claudia could not know that she was having twins?

Hilda said...

The one thing that I found confusing was that at the end of season 5 we see MIB & Jacob talking on the beach. Did this happen before Jacob tossed him into the yellow river? I would think that MIBs hate for Jacob started after he was thrown into the yellow river, right? If that is the case how can they explain MIB showing up in his body?? Maybe Smokey took over MIBs body?
BTW, I enjoyed the episode, but I do hate that there is only 3.5 hours left to tie everything in!! I am sure lots of questions will go unanswered, which is frustrating.

crashriprock said...

wow with MYV cell phones and the ADD of todays societies there are women who dont know they are pregnant your kidding me?

I think things may have been a little bit different 200 years ago.

Lauren said...

So you believe that Claudia's son in Benjamin Linus? Do you think that when Ben Linus was brought back by being placed in the pool buy the others that original MIB's soul was reincarnated in Benjamin Linus' body? I do believe that "smother" mentioned rebirth or reincarnation in the list of powers the light pool has, so that's a thought. But otherwise I'm not sure I follow the reference....

crashriprock said...

no
I just think like all the other names the writers have picked they pick ones that have signifgance.

ChicagoKilla said...

Check out kate's interview last night with jimmy fallon.


http://www.roflcentral.com/jimmy-fallon-talks-to-losts-evangeline-lilly/

crashriprock said...

Take the name Jeramy Bantham

that was the FAKE name Locke used.

The real Jeramy Bantham used fake names to publish his works

Anonymous said...

@crashriprock

Things were very different 200 years ago and even more different 2000 years ago (which is when this episode takes place), but women still didn't have a way of always knowing how many children they were having.

I think the ADD, cell phones and MTV may be effecting you're beliefs.

crashriprock said...

Lets look at all the other christian symbolism in the show.
Jesus was said to have ushered in the age of Pices the age of the FISH

before that is was the age of Aries the ram and before that Taurus the bull

Maybe each age that passes needs another gaurdian for the tree of life

So what age is next
Aquarius which is an air sign.

How did the losties get to the Island
AirPlane

and I think the air symbolism is going to play a big part in the end of this show

Rukshan said...

From what I've seen on the show up till today and this episode + what people say/think/blog/comment... this show is about the mind and its power to convince and be convinced.

Each phase of the Others,Losties,Dharma, they all changed from one thing to another by being convinced.

End of the day, its all going to be about free will.

Jacob and BIB both had the same life, up till the point they had to chose what they want. Each went there own way due to being convinced and felt some regret at one stage or the other.

From today's episode, I feel that Jacob was wrong,and MIB was right till the point he floated in to the light. until that point, he could have left the island and found what ever he wanted.

MIB died physically, but his spirit/core didn't. In Buddhism it says that when a person dies his/her mind travels as its own entity and can be reincarnated. Its possible that when MIB went in to the light his mind was some how separated. He was then able to take different forms and some how fulfill his dream of making that cart wheel machine/convince others to make it for him. OR Jacob used his brothers idea to get out of the island to bring in candidates..

sorry for the rant, just ideas

crashriprock said...

So mothers 2000 didnt have arranged marriges?

and I guess unwed mothers in those days was real popular

and all my life Ive always heard that a woman knows the moment she gets pregnant

Oh and I keep forgeting how much REALITY has played a part in a show about people who crash on an Island then go back in time then are projected through time by setting off a nuclear weapon.

So yeah theres no fantasy here.

and I dont have MTV
I have a library full of John Locke Jeramny Bantham Phenious Quimby Charles Hannel Chauser Whitman Beckett Wilde Dante Alighieri Shakespeare Bacon Lewis Plato and dozens of other wirters that have been used in one way or another on this show.

Mike V. said...

This is nuts...158 comments already??? I think the finale is going to make this blog implode like the SWAN hatch! lol I'll do my best to keep up...but i definitely already posted way too much today.

@AUStarwars - Where there's a will there's a way! lol

BTW, Darlton's brief comments on Fan Reaction to the ep:
http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/05/12/damon-lindelof-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea/

@Crash, I know I'm not confused by your posts. You are suggesting that Claudia was only pregnant with one child and SMOKEY was impersonating the other one...or something like that. I don't buy it! lol AT ALL! I so whole heartedly do not buy into it that I don't even want to argue about it...so to save time...any posts relating to it, I'm just gonna skip! :-) no offense! lol

@Stevie - Thanks for the props! I think the show will always have religious THEMES to it, but I don't think we will find out that GOD or the DEVIL have been behind everything. Take Jacob and MIB for instance...we found out that they were in fact normal HUMANS (not super human deities) before the Island got a hold of them!

@Crash - no need to bash people for just accepting what they saw! I already used the "no sonogram" argument above too...so I'm done! lol

@Dan - I don't think we're going to learn HOW it changed it when Jacob died...I think we're just meant to assume that Jacob dying made MIB Stuck with the last form he had taken. Maybe it's only until the next CHOSEN one takes his place or something? I dunno lol

@Gina -NO!!!!!!!!!!! Not the "P" word again! :-) lol

@David - good call with Chang's X-ray!

@Hilda - FYI - Smokey never takes "over" someone's body. It takes the FORM of dead bodies. But yes..the conversation on the beach happened AFTER MIB had become the Smoke Monster. I still am siding on the fact that MIB "is" the Smoke monster (a fate worse than death)...he can take that form among other dead people's forms until Jacob died...now he's stuck as locke.

@Chicago - Thanks for the link, I'll check it out!

crashriprock said...

200 years ago

crashriprock said...

No thats not what I am saying
Im saying Claudia came to the Island with one baby and the Island gave her another baby the baby the island gave her was to take the place of the gaurdian. Smokey didnt exist until White Jacob thru the mortal version into the well.

Mike V. said...

@Rukshan - Yeah...agreed...it's all about "CHOICE" in the end...the option Jacob offered up to Ben. I also agree that MIB should technically have been just fine if he left the island. EVE said he wouldn't let him leave because she loved him. Does that mean she didn't want him to leave because she wanted his company? Because it sure seemed like she wanted to die! Crazy.

No problem with the rant...great ideas!

@Crash and all of the debaters - Okay...let's all settle down! lol No need to get feisty! I'm just going to say that your "Phantom Baby" theory is an interesting one, but I just don't think it's a direction that this show will take. I'm not going to get into realism vs. fantasy of LOST. But I do think that that it is very possible for a woman to NOT know she is having twins...especially 2000 years ago. That is all I will say! If you recall...other lines you didn't bring up in the episode are the fact that BIB was convinced that Jacob was part of the shipwrecked crew too. Yes, the Ghost Mother (or maybe smokey) never said it...but he did. I think at some point, there is just a case of looking TOO MUCH into things. It's just my opinion though. Like I said, if you end up being right...I'll totally eat crow. But I may not be happy with the way that story turned out!

crashriprock said...

Baal , Hercules , Jesus and a whole host of others all had gods for fathers and mortals for mothers.
These writers just took that one step further and gave us one mortal brother and one immortal twin brother.

Mike V. said...

btw...I casually slipped it into conversation earlier...any comments on Locke telling Eko he saw a BRIGHT WHITE LIGHT when he saw Smokey?

Mike V. said...

Referring to the popularity of the blog again - So far with 5 hours and change to go....the site already received 7300 hits! that is insane my friends! That topped last Wednesday's 24 hour record of 6400. The week before 4500..

to put in comparison...when I started the blog...I used to get about 40 hits on the day after a show!

Thanks everyone for coming and continuing to return! And welcome all newcomers! (it's a shame the show is ending soon! lol)

gnni4 said...

@ Crash "and all my life Ive always heard that a woman knows the moment she gets pregnant"

I did not know the moment that I got pregnant.

I did not know if I was having a boy or a girl.

I did not know how many babies I was going to have, if they were going to be good or evil or that I was going to lose several of my pregnancies before going to term.

I have very dark hair, my son is blond, it can happen.

I think that I certainly would have noticed an entire second baby suddenly being inside me.

I am just saying that not EVERY woman has the same experience. Some women might know the second that they are pregnant, some may not know until a baby falls out of them. All humans have different experiences, different perceptions, and different opinions.

I happen to have a different opinion than you. I am not trying to condemn your opinion or force you to defend it, but I am pointing out as one who has been pregnant several times, that each of my pregnancies were unique, and that I have not known the moment I conceived that it had happened.

It is an interesting idea. I have a friend that believes himself to be a 7-foot tall reptilian from the Pleiadian system, that traveled to Earth through a wormhole that exited through his mother's womb. I don't believe him either.

crashriprock said...

ok gnni4
Ill except the fact that every woman (mother ) I have ever know
Lied to me
And all the great Authors through out time were wrong in thier symbolism of motherhood and nature.

So with that conceeded

Please explain to me why Claudia's ghost ONLY appeared to MIB.

Mike V. said...

Again, If you'll explain to me why "ANY" ghosts appear to Hurley...or why GHOST Jacob appeared to Sawyer and Desmond...then I'll explain to you why the mother only appeared to MIB. There has never seemed to be a "RELATED ONLY" tie to the ghost appearances. Yes...Christian Shephard appeared to Jack off-island and that's the only time he has seen a ghost...but Charlie, Michael, Eko, Ana Lucia, Jacob...none are related to Hurley. As far as we know GHOST JACOB BOY is not related to Sawyer...and maybe not Desmond lol (we just don't know where Desmond comes from!)

crashriprock said...

So if a woman becomes a ghost.
She would know who her children are at that point right?

Why wouldnt she want to take both of her children to see where they came from?

as for the ones you mentioned they were born or concived off island

calbhach said...

@Mike V. What I meant was that Jacob and MIB have been arguing since children about people being good or bad. In season's 5 the incident Jacob says that he will prove MIB wrong about the idea that people get to the island and "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."
As they say in season's 6 across the sea, they're both people too and that's why EVE has to make impossible for them to kill each other, but they weren't raised by people outside the island and therefore, they're not a valid sample for their argument. They need adults or children from outside the island to show if they are good o bad people.
Maybe the rule was imposed some time after the first years of the DI or even after the purge, for we have seen Ethan being born in the island.

crashriprock said...

and before you ask why didnt richard see Isabell he had learned not to see because he couldnt trust his eyes thanks to SM

Mike V. said...

@crash like Jacob it sounds like you're making up the rules as you go here! :-) I just can't debate the logic you're using with this stuff!

@calbhac - i think I understood what you meant. It it makes sense that it wouldn't have happened until some time after 1977 since ethan was conceived and born on island.

Richard said...

Crash,
It seems you're looking at this from the point of view that the dead mother is in control. She did not seem to even know she had twins, which 2000 years ago seems possible. Also, in those days particularly, the first born was the one granted primary inheiratance.

LIke others on the island who receive special gifts perhaps MIB got this gift of seeing ghosts whereas Jacob did not, atleast not yet as he had not yet had his communion.

crashriprock said...

Its easy
FMOTHER wanted what?
a replacement.

Why couldnt she find one?

because according to her all men are evil

so what did the island do??

gave her a son she could raise to protect the island.

On a show that has a miracle pool that brings people back to life

why is it so hard to believe that and Island would give some one a miraculous Birth

Fmother just got the two confused when she said the BIB was special

Thats why she said the white Jacob that she was wrong about him.

crashriprock said...

She also knew that the Devine Jacob could not kill her and that is why she thanked the mortal one for killing her.

davidsalako said...

When Claudia gave birth, she clearly saw Jacob and what he looked like when he was born. If you watch closely the camera purposely cuts out BIB when he is initially born and Claudia never actually sees him - she hears his cries though.
Her request before La Madre Loco bashes her head in is to see the second baby - "him". If along with the shocking murder this was her last thought it is no surprise that her ghost is driven by these thoughts.
Kind of similar to Isabella and Michael.
She appeared to BIB maybe because she had been watching him and felt that he could handle what she was about to tell him or BIB has the ability to see ghosts much like Hurley can.
Perhaps Jacob doesn't have that gift?

gnni4 said...

@ Crash:
I am confused by why you keep referring to the white Jacob, are you thinking that MIB was supposed to be Jacob, and THAT is why he said that Jacob stole his body? I get that you think that the blond baby was not her actual child, but the term white Jacob confuses me.

crashriprock said...

yes the first one born was Imortal /replacement the second one should have been named Jacob.
It was a mix up.

Please just watch it again on HULU

gnni4 said...

David, I got that when I watched also.

I don't intend to be mean, but I had to chuckle when Crash was saying HIM several times in a post earlier, because my first thought was to laugh that she was asking to see Haile Selassie!
(His Imperial Majesty, aka HIM)

crashriprock said...

even tho most of the symbolism used in this show by the writers has not had much to do with the plot. The writer have stayed fairly true to the root of the original story..

In the Story of Jacob
Jacob was born second.

Anonymous said...

i'm still confused WHY the MiB can't leave the island, after his "mom" said that "if the light goes out here it goes out everywhere"(resembles whidmore saying "if he gets off, everything will cease to be") and then MiB turned into the smoke monster from being throw into the pool of light, if he got off the island it might extinguish the pool of light, but his mom told him when he was 12 that he could never leave the island as well, so maybe she knew that he was going to become the smoke monster? like she knew it was her time to die? it seems to me like the protector shouldnt beable to leave the island, but jacob lest many times, WHY CANT MIB LEAVE THE ISLAND?!!? I DONT GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and the protector of the island cant just be there to keep smokie at bay can they? because their "mother" was the protector of the island before smokie, but as you speculated there were past smokies? i just dont know anymore!

i'm not sure my ramblings made much sense, but i had to share my thoughts or else i wouldve lost it, no pun intended

and too, on it looking like MIBs "mom" killed him, at the end of the scene you see her with her hand reaching out towards him, like the "jacob touch" so maybe she killed him and brought him back? or brought him near death and brought him back (like locke falling out of the window and jacob touching him)

But, I really enjoyed this episode, it answered alot, even though it raised alot more questions, I don't understand the hate it got, I've been waiting AGES to find out the backstory of MIB/Jacob, although I think they could've delved into more of their past than what they did, I'm happy with what they did give us.

once again, awesome blog Mike V, always helps me gather my thoughts a bit

(haven't read comments yet so apologies if anythings been covered already)

-Johnson

davidsalako said...

Another thought - when Jacob lays his mother and brother to rest in the cave, he is the only human left alive on THE ISLAND. All the others were killed by whatever it is that BURNED them.
No wonder Jacob prefers his own company! Loneliness and solitude are quite familiar to him!

Anonymous said...

Quick comment about the Jack/Kate flashback ... I am a Mike-blog reader and have re-watched season 1, so I had not forgotten about the Adam and Eve discovery in season 1 and knew that this question was being answered when Jacob put the stones in the pouch. But I loved the flashback in this episode. You call it overkill, I say it is a bittersweet reminder that the series is coming to an end. Think of other shows that have ended ... don't they usually show us scenes from throughout the series? They just wanted to remind everyone of not only how Jack found the bodies, but how much we love and will miss this show. I love Lost!

davidsalako said...

I agree with Anonymous - the flashback seemed odd at first but I think it added to the melancholy feel especially when the late John Locke made his comment about "Adam and Eve". Poignant when you think about the fate that unfolds for them - John Locke and MIB.

Snafu11 said...

@Crash - The only thing more confusing then the actual show is following your comments--dude, think decaf a chill. Love the enthusiasm though...

I had heard a rumor that the original Claudia was suppose to have been played by Sygorny Weaver, and that the script actual stated that BIB burst out of her chest, but then there was a last minute rewrite...

crashriprock said...

I guess my writing is confused because I know how this is going to end and I am trying very hard not to give it away.
I just wanted to help clear few things up for you guys.

I should have kept my mouth shut(or fingers shut)
But if you guys caqnt grasp what it is that I am saying. Then after the show ends and you ponder what happened over the summer I have prepared a list of books that might help

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Catch-22
Of Mice and Men
Epic of Gilgamesh
Heart of Darkness
The Chosen
Animal Farm
A Separate Reality
The Survivors of the Chancellor
Our Mutual Friend
The Pearl
The Shape of Things to Come
Moby Dick
The Little Prince
Notes from Underground
The Odyssey
Left Behind
Evil Under the Sun
Slaughterhouse-Five
The Sheltering Sky
Everything That Rises Must Converge
Brothers Karamazov
Fear and Trembling
I Ching
To Kill a Mockingbird
Ulysses
Caravan of Dreams
Flowers For Algernon
Julius Caesar
The Lord of the Flies
Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Tale of Two Cities
The Island
Mysteries of the Ancient Americas
Mysterious Island

Happy Reading :)

Anonymous said...

(1) Claudia is a Roman name.
(2) Claudia is wearing vaguely Roman clothing.
(3) They are speaking Latin. (I have a reading knowledge of Latin, that certainly extends to hearing "My name is Claudia"!)
This is before AD 476, because after that, the Western Roman Empire had fallen and so people did not wear Latin or wear Roman clothing any more. (The Eastern Roman Empire switched to Greek and a different style of clothing.)

EJ said...

1. Did anyone think of Walt when BIB said he (BIB) was special? Do you think this brings up ties to how the Others are always looking for "special" children?

2. So far, there has been a focus on characters having Daddy issues, but Jacob and BIB had MOMMY issues! LOL

3. At this point, Jacob is alone on the island. He has to (learn to?) bring people to the island. His replenishment of the island population is, I believe, how he becomes the leader of the Others we know. These are the followers of Jacob -- a people deeply committed to protecting the island and probably builders of the temple. (Interesting that they wiped out the US Army, but set up a truce with the Dharma Initiative....)

4. Eve let BIB execute FREE WILL when he decided to go live with the Others. Just a thought. Especially since he was just 13 years old -- kind of like she knew he had to go so she could die or move the story forward or something. Sound familiar?

5. Did any of last night's episode clear up why Smokey cannot cross the sonic fence or a circle of ash (possibly the island protector's ashes)? I'm not sure it did. There's ash where the Others were destroyed by Eve, and the electromagnetism in the island (the light?) and frequency in the fence may interact somehow, but I'm not making any really valid connections on this one.

6. I like the comment in here that the temple may have been built over the opening Eve showed the boys -- giving the temple pool its healing powers, etc.

Florin Milea said...

After reviewing the episode - although not a ‘Ab Aeterno’, it was a very good one. As I said in my prior p, it answered a lot of questions - see my prior post, yes it raised a few but I guess that would be a bit normal, it gave us the much needed centric ep about Jacob and MiB, which I will call from now on - Esau, no Biblical pun. Yes some lines were cheesy, and maybe too much drama in some cases, but since they have a such a short lease to finish, I guess we have to understand.

I am also happy to say that the guys still know how to put a punch and a twist in this whole show.

I understand now that Esau is not the same as Smokey-O as I assumed for a long time. This ep showed us how the temple water works and what effects it can have on the one being exposed to it. We have the partial answer to the donkey wheel, wells like the one Des was thrown in and the one Locke went into to turn the wheel, the pockets of energy, the ghosts and the entrapment, etc.

So who’s the craziest woman? To me Claire still beats Rousseau and the Mother of Jacob and Esau - MoJE or Eve. And just because BIB thinks she’s crazy it doesn’t really means she is. Is just his perspective.

Please Do Not Call MiB Adam. It’s an insult to Adam.

A few loop full circle events:
-Esau runs with the ghost of his mother to meet the others.
-Ben does the same.

-Esau wants off the island.
-Locke wants in.
-Locke is rejected just like Ben and Esau.
-The ‘they came , they kill, they corrupt...
Evil Esau comes out bad from the run into the light and water.
Sayid I would say suffered the same.

I will now go on record to assume that Smokey-O is the evil from the underworld who needed a connection with the outside world and Esau was that. Could’ve Jacob known what was going to happen if he does that to Esau, or his grief over the loss of Eve clouded his judgement? Esau turned to join the manipulative people, killed his mother, became evil and that is what the underworld Smokey-O connected with.
For Steve - Smokey-O is Evil and MiB/Flockey are only impersonations Smokey took. Jacob found the dead body of Esau at the other end.

Eve did not killed Esau as I saw in one post. She knocked him out and took him out of the well. She has to be a bit psychologically obsessed but not crazy to me. We don’t know her killing the Others, that was a Big purge for one woman alone.

@crash - In the SW our candidates got all they wanted you said, except for one important thing, Sayid no Nadia, Sawyer no Cooper, etc. With this one I think we will know what we will get out of that box of Losties. ;-)

@gnni4 - A security system can protect good people or bad ones.

Florin Milea said...

@anonymous - The clothing and the languages in Europe continued on the Latin-Roman style even after the fall of the Roman Empire - both West and Eastern one. What you see in pictures in books and movies are the official clothing worn by officials. Other then that there was a mixture of all kind of cultural influences. This episode does suggest that the island was in the area and had Greek and Roman influences.

Ian said...

So many comments here I can't begin to read them all! I'll just share a few thoughts I had.

I think the reason we never got MIB's name is because we've been calling him Smokey, MIB, Flocke, etc. for so long that it kind of defines him for us. To give him a name at this point would change our view of the character. Does that make sense to anyone else? It made sense in my head.

I was one of the people disappointed by this episode, but I wouldn't say I hated it. Perhaps the last two episodes will shed light on some things this episode left ambiguous, and upon rewatching we'll have a better appreciation for it. "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" comes to mind. The episode begins with Locke miraculously back to life on the island, and then we get to the backstory where Locke is killed by Ben. It seems like no big deal that Locke died, since he's been resurrected. Then at the end of "The Incident" we learn that resurrected Locke is actually Smokey. "TLADOJB" is suddenly a much more powerful episode, since we now know that it's where the John Locke we knew and loved from the first four and a half seasons perished.

I'm planning to rewatch the entire series after the finale airs, and it's possible certain scenes and episodes will have a much different meaning than when I first saw them.

crashriprock said...

Florin
Do you really think they are going to lock up Sayid for killing in self defence?
and anthony Cooper is a veg. and when Sawyer finds out he will be happy dont you think?

ChicagoKilla said...

Share your LOST ending theories and win a prize!

http://www.theblogwiki.com/lost-ending-theories/

Snafu11 said...

The reason they did not give him a name is because it does not matter. I too was a little pissed that they couldn't just give us a name but in the grand scheme of things, if Smokey is the main entity and somehow takes MIB soul and portrays him & countless others, then it does not much matter what MIB original names was... because

"He is Everybody"!!!

Not literally, at least not yet.. just had to throw those God awful lyrics out there lol.

Snafu11 said...

One last parting thought for the night. Not to add another biblical reference but did it seem like they were trying to draw a parallel between MIB trying to temp Jacob, like it was part of a test--similar to how Jesus was tested by Satan (the original old smokey)?

OK Florin you got the night shift as usual--keep it going ;-)

EJ said...

This links to interview where Darlton address why they did not give MIB a name, as well as cloth age on Adam & Eve and why they inserted the scenes of Jack, Kate and Locke into Jacob's personal farewell time.

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea

This makes me think about how the Others were wiped out as things transitioned from Eve to Jacob, much like the others are now wiped out (except for those following Flocke) as things transition from Jacob to ....????.....

crashriprock said...

Here is Damons quote about last nights show


"Whatever your theory was, our presentation of the endgame of the show may disprove your theory, so we're sorry if you don't like the fact that you don't get the Man in Black's name, but you don't get it."

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