Wednesday, February 11, 2009

LOST: Season 5 Episode 5 - This Place is Death

Hello there Losties! Whew, another crazy episode into the history books. You know, for the past few seasons I had been excited at the thought of a whole episode dedicated to learning about Rousseau's past. After this episode, I'm glad that they kept that storyline to a minimum. We saw the things that we really wanted to see, and that's about it! And naturally, it still raised more questions (or re-emphasized certain questions). The core of this story revolved around Jin and Sun. And it's not the first time that we've had an episode that told their story in 2 different times (see Season 4), but it's the first time we were in the know! Well, I'm all out of wordiness at the moment, so let's skip my over-zealous and over-worded review for today, give the episode another "WOW!!!" and move on to the good stuff!

This episode yet again advances the OFF-ISLAND storyline to get back to the Island. On the Island, we follow Jin's path to meeting up with the other "Left Behinders" and their quest to get to the Orchid. Drama, Death, and Comedy ensues. Let's dive in!

Oceanic "5" & Ben

We continue the story as most of the Oceanic 6 (no Hurley) are assembled with Ben. Sun, in her car, has gun in hand and is ready to put an end to Ben for good. The phone rings...

  • It's Ji Yeon and Nanny (or Sun's Mom? I don't think it's quite important to the story!). Sun talks to Ji Yeon about meeting a new friend for her (Aaron). Funniest thing though, Ji Yeon is younger than Aaron but speaking much better than Aaron is! Maybe he's just a quiet kid. And I guess, in the scheme of things, they're only maybe 6 months apart in age. (Only estimating folks, no need to do the actual math!)
  • You'd think this phone call might bring Sun back down to earth from taking someone's life, but when she gets off the phone she is more motivated than ever. Sun comes out of car, gun blazing and points it right at Ben. She blames him for Jin's Death. (stay tuned for my rant on how on earth did she find out Ben might be responsible)
  • Ben, of course, is prepared for Sun and tells Sun that Jin is very much alive and he has proof. He needs 30 minutes to take her to Mrs. Hawking for an explanation. They really did get us to trust Ben again starting last season and coming into this season didn't they? I guess we should've listened to Sayid! (more to come on this too!)
  • Ben also mentions that this person is the same person that's going to help them all get back to the Island. Well, Kate is having none of that! She assumes Jack "pretended" to care about Aaron's well-being to get her back to the Island. She flips out gets in the car and screeches off. (Thanks to ABC promos, we know this delay on Kate's part doesn't look like it will last long. I really have to learn to stop watching them!)
  • Apparently, Sayid wasn't in the know on what Jack's ultimate plan was either. Because he walked away and made threats to both Jack and Ben if he sees them again. I believe the exact words were "it won't be pleasant for any of us." Maybe some breakdancing neck snapping moves in their future? Ahh good times. So Sayid is another problem now.
  • Jack and Sun continue on with Ben. Sun wants that information! Apparently the drive takes longer than 30 minutes which Ben responds to with his traffic comment. Man that dude cracks me up with everything he says.
  • Jack apologizes to Sun for leaving Jin behind on the freighter. He says that everything happened so quickly and they should have waited for him. (and of course, neither of them brought up that they would've been blown to bits. Or would they have??? Jin wasn't!) When Sun asks why Jack is bringing this up now and if it's to get her to NOT kill Ben...Jack reflects his true feelings again for Ben. He's not happy with what Ben did to Kate (trying to take Aaron from her) and if Sun doesn't kill Ben, he will! Yeah Jack!!
  • Van screeches to a half and Ben flips out. That man gets NO love and all he wants to do is help people! "What I'm doing is helping you! And if you had any idea what I've done to keep you safe, keep you're friends safe, you'd never stop thanking me!" Is he referring to all of the people he had Sayid kill on his way to the still unknown Economist (still suspected to be Charles Widmore)? Considering that's kinda what he told Sayid last season, it's probably a good assumption. Apparently, this is enough to convince Jack and Sun to keep following ol' Ben for now.
  • Stay tuned until the end of the blog for the rest of this storyline!

The Island Through the Ages (Many Ages)

We begin our Island story with Jin and Rousseau's crew. But what we witness throughout the episode is much more rapid flashes through time. Things are becoming critical for the "Left Behinders" and it races to an exciting climax by the episode's end.

Rousseau's Story

  • First off, let me apologize that I messed up last week in naming Robert and Montaun. Apparently the Blonde haired guy is Montaun and Robert was the guy with black hair and Rousseau's husband.
  • We start off with Montaun checking their transceiver and hearing the numbers transmission from the radio tower. That was pretty cool to hear that since old Rousseau told Hurley about it in season 1.
  • Jin's English became much better since the freighter explosion. I guess when you're forced to speak it, you just start speaking it? Seriously...I was reminded of Hiro on Heroes learning English within 1 episode! But of course, later in the episode, he had trouble speaking again. I guess you have to look past this stuff. I just found it comical!
  • Jin finds out that he has run into a crew that left Tahiti on 11/15/1988. Well, I guess Sayid was estimating when he told everyone the message was playing for 16 years, since they crashed in September of 2004. By the time Rousseau gets to that Radio tower, all of her people are dead (since it says it on the transmission "they're all dead"). But what's a few months I guess?
  • Jin wants to find his camp because he's still confused of where/when he is. He wants to find his wife.
  • Rousseau's crew wants to find the Radio Tower, which apparently Jin knows where it is (ummmm, he didn't go to the radio tower in season 3! oh well, we'll let it slide since they don't actually get there with Jin)
  • Jin agrees to take them to the tower because he knows his way back to camp from there.
  • On their way, we find out Rousseau is 7 months pregnant and that Robert wanted to name the baby Alexander if it was a boy. Rousseau was convinced it was a girl and it would be Alexandria.
  • Oh right, and then ol' Smokey comes and kills Nadine! Jin tries to convince them of a monster, Montaun doesn't believe. They continue on. Eventually Nadine falls from the sky and Smokey uproots a tree. And in true LOST fashion, Jin instructs them all to RUN! (man, I how I've missed running in the jungle scenes!)
  • And then, the moment we've all been waiting for. Finding out how Montaun lost his arm. I believe we did know it happened in the "Dark Territory" that Rousseau spoke of. But I guess we never knew that it was Smokey! Smokey inspects Montaun and then grabs him, and like Locke in season one, tries to drag him down one of his holes (which we still don't know where that goes!) Everyone tries to pull him out. And then Smokey wraps some smoke around Montaun's arm and yanks the rest of his body away from the arm. And the Montaun's arm goes flying! Woo hoo!!!! Sure, maybe some people were grossed out, but if you've been listening to Damon and Carlton (producers) for a few seasons on the podcasts, then you know that they found the whole story of Montaun losing his arm comical. It used to just be a line in the script to make Rousseau's character even more damaged. So when we see that arm flying, you just get the impression that the writers were loving every minute of it! I sure did!
  • So why didn't Smokey try to rip Locke's arm off when Jack saved him from the pit of despair!?
  • And when everyone goes into that hole after Montaun did they get him out? We don't see see him again in the next flash.
  • Jin keeps Rousseau from going into the hole saying she needs to protect the baby. And of course she and Alex stays alive for 16 more years! (then that's it folks!)
  • Oh, we finally get to see the Temple, first referred to in season 3 and where Ben sent Rousseau, Alex and Karl in season 4. (Why did Rousseau need the map then?) These are more ancient ruins on the Island signifying how old the Island is. There are more hieroglyphics on the temple. If anyone cares to translate, that would be fantastic!
  • When Jin flashes, Rousseau does not appear to see the flash (similar to other episodes). She asks Jin what is wrong with him as he is holding his ears.
  • Jin flashes to a time later than when he just was. Montaun's arm looks a little older!
  • He goes back to the beach, sees that the Frenchies have set up a pseudo-camp. We also see Danielle's Music Box from season 1. You know, the one Sayid fixed when he was her prisoner.
  • Jin comes across 2 dead bodies (the 2 Frenchies whose names we never learned) We can assume Rousseau killed them since she tells Sayid she killed all of her men. (but maybe not Montaun? We see no evidence that he's dead, but I doubt we'll see a one-armed man walking around the Island in the present day (if they ever get back to the present day))
  • We see Rousseau with a gun pointed at Robert. She claims he has changed and that the monster changed him, made him sick. (hmmmm ANOTHER sickness? Were we wrong to assume it was time-related?) She claimed that he was no longer Robert.
  • And if we can assume that Robert is speaking from Smokey's perspective, he states that it is not a monster but a security system for the temple. Hmmmmm Well what is it protecting? Ben's metaphorical magic box??! And yes, we know that Rousseau called the smoke monster a security system in season 1, so now we know WHY she did. We've also seen Smokey summoned by Ben in Othersville, which is NOT near the Temple. So, are we sure it's just guarding the temple?
  • Anyway, long story short (too late!) Rousseau lowers her gun, and Robert tries to kill her with his gun. But the gun jams!!! Ahhh perhaps Fate or Time intervening again? Did Rousseau and Alex still have work to do on the Island? Rousseau raises her gun and kills Robert.
  • She then sees Jin and accuses him of disappearing and that he is sick too. She shoots at him a couple times and then he flashes out of Frenchieville!
  • So the big question on everyone's does Present-Day Rousseau not recognize Jin? Well, I guess you could argue that it was 16 years ago, and she has gone a little crazy since then. You could argue that Jin's hair has grown out and looks totally different than he did in season 1. You could argue that Jin and Rousseau never really spent much screentime together. You could argue that the writers just decided now to put Jin in the past with her (probably true!) But I guess the bigger thing going on here is people from the future or present going back and interacting with people from the past. When Desmond goes to see Dan in 1996, present Dan does not recall that conversation until after Desmond goes back in time and does it. When Dan talks to Desmond in the past on the Island, Desmond gets the memory at a later date. Oh, and we're going to find out in a couple sections down, that Charlotte starts getting some memories randomly. I would think it has more to do with that!
  • And thus, ends our history lesson with Rousseau and crew.


  • The next flash finds Jin all alone but not for long. Sawyer holds a gun towards Jin's back. (Not knowing who it is). But the moment that followed was pure comedy Gold! Sawyer's excitement over seeing Jin alive was fantastic! He was totally confused, Jin speaks in broken English again saying he was in water. And Sawyer gives a great line "Well, whattya say!?" I try to avoid these in the actual blog posts but that deserves an LOL!
  • Dan explains that the blast of the freighter must've blown Jin into the Radius of the Island. Hmmmm that's a bit of a stretch. And does this mean that it wasn't time for Jin to die yet? Was he fated to survive also?
  • Sawyer explaining time travel to Jin was kinda priceless too!
  • Looks like Charlotte knowing Korean has an advantage with Sun gone, because Jin makes her translate to Locke "How do you know Sun is alive?" So you know we never really talked about why Charlotte may know Korean. Is Dr. Chang Korean? Could he have possibly raised her as a child? Maybe that wasn't baby Chang but baby Charlotte in the season premiere? hmmm interesting. We'll get more into Charlotte's backstory in a minute.
  • Locke told Jin he knows Sun is alive because he just knows and that she never should've left. He's going to leave the Island to bring them all back.
  • And they continue down the yellow-brick road to the Orchid station.
  • Dan and Charlotte share a moment about her speaking another language. Locke mentions not knowing how to leave the Island quite yet. And then they flash again.....and then again immediately after! Charlotte collapses, Juliet's nose is bleeding, and now Sawyers is too! oh boy! And why not Locke's? Wasn't he there the same amount of time as Sawyer?
  • Charlotte starts talking crazy "Don't Let them Bring her back" in Korean and then English. "This Place is Death!" She then starts talking about what her mother would say if she knew she was marrying an American. (I'm going to have to re-check this scene later to hear exactly what she said...unless any friendly commenters want to post it!) They flash again. It's getting out of control.
  • Update: Charlotte said "I know more about Ancient Carthage than Hannibal himself" This is modern day Tunisia where we know Charlotte spent time. Read all about it here!
  • Oh right and then Charlotte says she loves Geronimo Jackson. (The made up Band that Lost has been pimping since season 2!)
  • Dan says he's going to stay with Charlotte as the rest rush to the Orchid. When they say they don't know if the Orchid will be there, Charlotte chimes in "look for a well! You'll find it at the well." Hmmm, is she remembering something or is the Island speaking through her? (I'm leaning towards remembering considering what was to follow.)
  • So the team splits up

Dan and Charlotte

  • Charlotte confesses to Dan that she has been to the Island before. She was with the DHARMA Initiative. She moved away with her mother and never saw her father again. Her mother tried to convince her that her thoughts of the Island were not real. Charlotte became an anthropologist to find the Island. She's looked her whole life.
  • The reason she begins to tell Dan all of this is because she remembered something (a sudden memory? hmmmmm kinda like Desmond?). A scary man told her something when she was little. She had to leave the Island and never come back. And if she did, she would die. Here's the kicker...she thinks that scary man was Daniel!!!! Woaaaa Wait a second. So even after Daniel tells everyone that you can't change the future, he tried anyway? Should we be looking into that? Clearly Daniel doesn't remember doing that yet, so it hasn't happened from his perspective yet. Where exactly are these guys going to end up when they stop their crazy flashing?
  • Dan tries to tell Charlotte things are going to be okay and that he talked to Desmond at the hatch and that he's going to find his mother. Charlotte tells Dan "I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner" and then is gone. RIP Charlotte Staples Lewis. Will she be alive in an alternate future? Probably not, but I'm guessing we haven't seen the last of her!

Locke's Crew and the Well

Locke and crew journey on towards the Orchid and are at some point in the future where the Orchid exists but is run down.

  • Juliet asks what the odds are that they'd be in a time where it exists. And then they flash to a time where it doesn't. Sawyer: "You had to ask, didn't you?!" Good times.
  • Locke looks around for the well and finds it. Miles wonders how Charlotte knew about it. Hmmm and he knew that Charlotte was born there. Weird. Maybe there is something else going on there?
  • Locke plans to jump down the well using the rope. He says goodbye to everyone and that he'd see them when he got back. (hmmm he knows he has to die! maybe he didn't want to alert them of his plan)
  • Jin makes Locke promise to not bring Sun back. Locke refuses for awhile but then promises he won't try to find her. But what if she finds him? Jin gives his wedding ring to Locke and tells him to lie and say he died and washed ashore and was buried. I thought this was a perfect explanation for Sun's motivation to kill Ben until we got to the twist at the end of the episode! More on that in a bit!
  • Juliet thanks Locke for doing what he's about to do (if it works naturally)
  • As Locke jumps into the well, they flash again...Sawyer grabs the rope and they go to a time where the well no longer exists (or never did exist?) I guess because sawyer is holding the moved with them?

  • Sawyer and crew fear the worst for Locke, but based on Juliet's "We can't help him now" I think they're holding on to some hope that he survived and isn't just buried in dirt!
  • Meanwhile Locke falls quite a distance (we've seen him fall out of a building before!) and hits the ground in a familiar looking cave!
  • He screams out in agony. We see a shot of his knee. Is that bone sticking out or did something stab him? Either way, it's nasty!
  • While he lay there, we hear footsteps. The man grabs a lantern and it's none other than Christian Shephard!
  • Christian says he's there to help him on the rest of the way. He also said that he told LOCKE to move the Island. And essentially that you should never listen to Benjamen Linus. Oh man, we've been duped again!! How on earth did I(we) not think of the simple fact that Ben wasn't the one that was supposed to move the Island? Well, we never heard what Christian exactly said to Locke. Locke had intended to move the Island, but then Ben took the job from him last minute. What on earth is Ben's plan? What would have happened if Locke initially moved the Island? Would he have left the Island? Would he have never flashed back to 1954 and told Richard to find him as a child? Would the Island have been saved and the show would be over? I'm very confused by all of this. But we have to be a bit worried about Ben's motivations again.
  • Christian tells Locke to go see Eloise Hawking. Wow, everyone needs to go see this crazy woman! So if he does go see her, and she is working with Ben...then maybe they all ARE playing for the same team? Again I'm confused! Widmore freely sent Desmond to Hawking too!
  • Locke tells Christian that Richard told him he had to die. Christian says "I guess that's why they call it sacrifice" Hmmm..."Christian" talking to Locke about sacrifice? How he needs to die only to come back to the Island and potentially be ressurrected? Tough not to see the similarities there!
  • Locke asks Christian if he can help him up. Christian says that he can't. then he is a Ghost? Or can he not interfere with Locke's destiny? How did Charlie slap Hurley? Was it a dream, was it real? Yikes.
  • Locke limps towards the Donkey wheel which is spinning all out of control. (could this represent the unstableness of the Island and/or the "Left Behinders?" Christian says all the wheel needs is a little nudge.
  • Note that the area is not as Frozen as we last saw it. What's that all about? And how did Ben know it would be cold the time that he went?
  • And of course, he tells Locke to "tell my son hello" When Locke asks who his son is, it's too late, as he had turned the wheel and was leaving the Island! Will Locke tell Jack that his Father has been giving him instructions?
  • And when will we meet Jacob? We know Christian can speak for Jacob but isn't actually Jacob. I was under the impression that maybe Jacob is Locke from the future. But then the producers made a comment like that in passing on the latest podcast. And well, if they're talking about it freely, then it's probably not the case! Well, stay tuned!

Meeting Eloise Hawking plus a Very Special Guest!

Ben and crew arrive at the church, and Ben is ready to unveil his proof to Sun that Jin is alive.

  • Ben reaches into his pocket and pulls out Jin's ring. He tells Sun that John gave it to her.
  • Love the Jack/Ben exchange: Jack "You said John never came to see you?" Ben: "That's true Jack, I went to see him!" Ahh good ol' Ben.
  • Okay, maybe this is all going to get cleared up in episode 7 when we get the Jeremy Bentham saga, but in tonight's episode we had a few twists into how Sun gets the motivation to kill Ben. First, I thought Locke wouldn't find out Jin was alive before he left the Island (wrong!), then Jin tells Locke what to tell Sun if they run into each other (well that apparently didn't happen either!). Sun asks why Locke didn't tell her himself. Ben says he doesn't know and that maybe he didn't get the chance. I could see maybe Locke still going to Sun but being instructed by Ben to convince her that he caused Jin's death. But then it wouldn't explain Sun's question to Ben. Oh well, it would seem by all the twists in this subplot, the writers have thought it out, so we'll find out in 2 weeks! (maybe)
  • For now, Sun is on board to go back to the Island and get to Jin (but what about Ji Yeon???)
  • Did I mention Desmond showed up too? Nice! Ben is shocked to see him. And when Desmond asks if he's looking for Faraday's mother too, Ben actually looks like he just learned something new. Oh boy, where is Penny?? Is Ben planning to go back with the others? Or is he going to go after her? Can Ben even go back? He told Locke once you leave the Island you can't go back. But he also lied about needing to be the one that moved the Island. Plus, they're planning on bringing Locke back (it sounds like in more ways than 1 too!)
  • By the way, as if we didn't know already, this episode pretty much confirms that Ms. Hawking is Faraday's mother. And confirms her name is Eloise (the same name as Dan's Rat). And probably confirms that "Ellie" 50 years ago is in fact Eloise Hawking. CRAZY!
  • Anyway, the 4 of them go into the Church and Eloise Hawking is waiting for them. Desmond looks at her as if he's seen her before (well duh!! The ring shop in his time traveled past!).
  • Eloise is concerned that not everyone is there. Ben says this is all he could get on short noice. She says this will have to do for now. And then one more cliffhanging line "Alright! Let's.....get started!"
Crazy episode! No need in speculating what Hawking will tell everyone. Seems like we're going to find out next week! At the end of the episode, we're led to think that these are the people that will go back first. But the previews suggest otherwise. And, I know I complained about the previews giving away too much, I gotta week's episode looks awesome! But I'm not going to get into recapping the preview, we'll wait until next week!

Sorry for the delay with the blog everyone. I was having technical difficulties this morning and you know until people start paying me for this, the day job takes precedence! Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I look forward to discussing with eveyrone! NAMASTE and see you next week!


Curt Sminkey said...

Butzo, not sure if you touched on this but i found it very strange that when Jin was rambling, was not how does Charlotte speak Korean, but how did Jin know Charlotte spoke in Korean? I think they tried to make us think he was talking to Miles but obviously not.

I guess they'll touch on this eventually. Maybe in a Flash that brings them to see Charlotte on the island her first time.

Fine job, as always.

Anonymous said...

Because last season Jin realizes Charlotte speaks Korean, he can tell she understands him and Sun and confronts her about it.

Mike V. said...

Hey Sminkey, listen to Anonymous! He/She is correct! lol

Watch the episode from season 4 entitled "Something Nice Back Home"

and thanks for the compliment!

Anonymous said...

Once again great recap!!! After last nights episode I have a new theory on who Charlotte's parents are, which may or may not have been discussed already. But I have totally convienced myself that her father is Ben. Ben was old enough to have children when he killed all the Dharma ppl. Also when everyone was saying how much how much Juliet looks like "her" I just assumed it was Ben's lover but if its his daughter.

Chris Stedman said...

Rousseau's Story

I’m the oppisosite of you Mike, I was disappointed they kept her story to a minimum. I wanted to see what happened when they went into the temple. What were the symptoms of their sickness that lead Rousseau to kill them or was she the only one who was sick all along? And is there more to the story of her finding the black rock. I want to know lol.

And I’m disappointed about Jin time jumping as well. There’s no way that he was thrown by the blast into the radius of the island, the helicopter should have been much closer and it didn’t make it into the radius. Remember the doctor from the freighter who washed to the island dead before he was killed be Kemmy on the freighter. I was hoping the same happened to Jin, floating to the island sent him to the past with Rousseau where he was stuck, 16 years away from his wife. As we saw with Dan and Charlotte not every love story can end happy and I thought that would have been a good twist, o well.


Ben might have been old enough but remember that Ben tried to kill Charlotte when she came to the island. Ben’s cold but he does care for his daughter/s.

Anonymous said...

I am confused about something. Ben is saying he can't go back to the island, but I thought we determined a while back that he was coming and going when he wanted. Is it because he used the donkey wheel to leave this time, as opposed to going by boat and following the specific coordinates as Michael and Walt did when they left the island?

Regarding Charlotte being Ben's daughter (perhaps Ben and Annie?) I like that theory. Maybe the mother changed Charlotte's name when she escaped the island, and Ben doesn't KNOW Charlotte is his daughter! I didn't like her character very much, so no loss as far as I'm concerned, unless she IS an important character, like Ben's daughter.

I LOVED the scene where they flashed and Sawyer was left holding the rope coming out of the ground -- TOO COOL!

I know this may seem like a stupid question, but have we ever determined why THIS SELECT group of people, with so many of their lives intersecting, were all on the plane in the beginning? I understand the reasons for them being on the island (atonement, second chances, etc.) but was it simply divine intervention that got them all on the same plane, or actually arranged by Widmore, Ben, or someone else? Surely this has been address before and I just missed it.

Mike said...

I thought after watching the last episode that Charlotte is the girl that remembered Ben's birthday when he was a child. They seem close enough to the same age for me.

Curt Sminkey said...

Ah, all the little details of LOST sure does get confusing sometimes. I'll have to go back and check that episode out again.

Thanks for the info, people.

Mike V. said...

"I know this may seem like a stupid question, but have we ever determined why THIS SELECT group of people, with so many of their lives intersecting, were all on the plane in the beginning? I understand the reasons for them being on the island (atonement, second chances, etc.) but was it simply divine intervention that got them all on the same plane, or actually arranged by Widmore, Ben, or someone else? Surely this has been address before and I just missed it."

I believe this is probably one of the great mysteries of LOST that won't really be answered until next season. Why Oceanic 815 crashed (we know desmond was involved but was there more to it?), why/how certain people survived (i guess we could chalk that up to fate/time stuff), why they were all on the plane, etc...These are all the big questions we've had since season 1 and will continue to have for the rest of the show.

Stedman, did we know before last night that Rousseau's crew went to the temple? I'm having a hard time remembering her conversation with Sayid. I agree, I would like to know more there, but I'm guessing that shot of the temple was a tease for more interesting things to come!

As for the Black Rock, it sounds like the producers are saving this stuff for the End Game of LOST. Whether Rousseau going to the Black Rock will play a part in that too? I dunno. But I could see how you were disappointed. Sometimes I'm too forgiving of this show! lol

With Jin, I agree, it's tough to swallow him surviving the explosion AND being in the radius of the Island. I'd like to see that digitally enhanced shot of Jin flying through the sky a few miles and then near the Island!

Not sure if I buy Ben as Charlottes's dad. I don't even think she would be Annie. Annie has to be someone of significance because it was Ben's best friend/possible childhook crush growing up. There is more to that story. And I'm sure Charlotte's parents will play a big role (or already have) too. We'll see!

I think I successfully rambled on until I make no sense again! :-)

Anonymous said...

Mike, thanks for confirming that my questions haven't been answered yet. I'm trying hard to keep up, but it's really tough! Your blogs really help tie together little things that I miss. Great job! I guess when they answer all of our questions, the show will be over, so I'm not in a hurry for that to happen! I am very anxious to see how Eloise is going to get them back onto the island next week. That swinging pendulem-thingy looks very intriguing! Thanks again for your weekly updates -- Anonymous (aka LuLu)

Mike V. said...

No problem LuLu, thanks for reading! I just hope the producers don't make a fool of me and NOT answer that question. They must know that is the question everyone REALLY wants to know the answer to! lol And I believe I heard them mention that in their ramblings before!

Thanks for the props on the blog, and I'm excited about next week too. I would agree that it would seem like SOME people are going to start heading back to the Island next week. If not, then probably by episode 8. I'm guessing episode 7 will be completely dedicated to John Locke/Jeremy Bentham once he's off the Island. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

Great critique! I, too, was wondering throughout the episode why Rousseau didn't recognize Jin...bothered me all night! This series with all its twists and turns just have us hooked year in and year out. This is worse than an addiction!

Anonymous said...

Was anyone else creeped out by Sun's wording to Ji Yeon of how she has 'met a new friend for her' ? It's not like Ji Yeon was sitting in the hotel a few miles away and Sun was arranging a future playdate. Seemed creeepy.

At first I thought Ben was surprised and just learned that Mrs Hawking was Dan's mom - cause Ben always seems to know it all. But - it occured to me that his surprise might have been that Des knew it ! Pointing to the fact that Daniel changed the future by telling past Des that info.

I thought it was pretty funny that when Jin was asking for translation they all looked at Miles.

And sickly - also lover the arm coming off and the rope stuck in the ground with Sawyer holding on to it.

Could Charlotte be a long lost Widmore ? I hope not - too soapy. But Charlotte and Pen could pass for sisters !

I'm starting to not trust Daniel. HE is the one stating that Jin must have been in the radium, which makes no sense. We know that when we first saw him he was looking a little crazy, then we know that he had info on the island he did not share when he first arrived. We have now learned that he's taken money from Widmore in the past, and then came to the island for Widmore. And everyone is just taking his word on what is happening and why. Starting to feel bad to me.

Anonymous said...

Love the blog, I thought when locke fell to the bottom of the well that the skeleton of the polar bear was below him, not sure if anyone has any pictures of him. I dont remember if it was charlotte or someone else that discovered the polar bear bones in the middle of the deseret. Sorry for the mispellings.

Miss Nutmeg said...

Hi, thanks so much for this fabulous blog! Am really enjoying it..

I think the 16 years is still good with Rousseau’s radio message, 1988 versus 2004. Because when the island flashes to the point when she kills Robert, she is still pregnant, but tummy didn’t look significantly larger. So I think they just flashed forward in time a few weeks… small thing though! :-)

Random thought, remember in season 1, when Kate is working on that farm in Australia for that nice old man, he wore a fake arm and lost his somewhere.. any connection to Montaun? I doubt it, but just thought of that.

Yes rope moved with them, just like the boat did in the last episode. Someone from the forums said something insightful, that Sawyer is the reason the well was ever built in the first place: he held onto the rope, causing it to stick out of the ground, which leaves something to dig up and discover, ie the time wheel thingy. Yay for Sawyer and his contribution to destiny!

David said...

Rousseau not recognising Jin-bo in previous episodes is simply down to the fact that it hadn't actually happened yet, surely?? Only after the island flashed to that point in time and they met would she be able to recognise him or have any memory of him at all. So in theory, if Rousseau was still alive she would have the memory now of meeting Jin speaking to him. I didn't really give that much thought at the time of the episode, the thing that got me about that particular exchange was the fact that, as mentioned in the blog, Jin didn't actually go anywhere near the radio tower. So how could he know how to get there and not know how to get to his camp from where he was, which would surely be just along the beach line?

I was soo glad to finally see how Montand lost his arm...I can now stop watching Lost and be happy knowing how he lost his arm! :) I won't stop watching but I can! :P You've actually incorrectly named Rousseau's husband in this blog as well Mikey! He is french and called Robert..not Italian and called Roberto! :P

I am actually really gutted about Charlotte you know, I was rooting for her and Daniel to be happily ever after...RIP CSL.

David said...

Oh and a way to look at the Donkey Wheel would be like a record Chang's record and like Mr Farahday described it to Sawyer in one of the first two episodes of the season. With that analogy, Locke nudging the Wheel and leaving the island is his way of repositioning the needle.

Anonymous said...

Im not sure but didnt they all go to the Radio Tower when Locke killed Noami, including Jin....

Mike V. said...

Whew lots to respond to so I'm gonna pick and choose! lol

MJ - good call on everyone looking at Miles. I meant to bring that up. It was hysetrical. ("Ummm he's Korean, I'm from Encino!" lol)

Hmm, not sure about the Polar Bear skeleton, but you better be careful. Some readers got in a heated discussion about the logistics of a polar bear turning that donkey wheel in last week's blog! lol I kinda have to agree that it would be kinda silly if that happened. The only reason it makes sense is because there were Polar Bear fossils in Tunisia (where Ben showed up after turning the wheel) and it would indicate some kind of time travel for the bear!

NS81, glad you're enjoying the blog! My comment about the 16 years was simply that Sayid must've rounded up to make it 16 years! lol (of course, simply is the wrong word because I just could've said what I just said here!) Oh and Alex??? She looked much older than 16 on the Island, but the cast of the original 90210 has eternally made it okay to cast older actors for teenagers! lol

Interesting with the man helping Kate being Montaun. I'm gonna guess no since he was from Down Under! But it reminded me of another point. Remember Dr. Marvin Candle/Chang/Wickmund etc... in one of the Orientation videos he had a prosthetic hand...I wonder if he too had an incident with ol' Smokey!!

David, I agree with your thoughts on people receiving these memories. It's kinda what I was getting to in the blog, but again, probably didn't flush it out too much. (I was really rushing to finish it today!) Thanks for the Roberto/Robert thing. I fixed it!

Thanks everyone again for all the compliments on the blog! You're far too kind!

Mike V. said...

anonymous....Jin stayed back with Bernard and Sayid to blow up the others. We thought for awhile that Ben had ordered the 3 of them killed via walkie talkie...leading jack to beat ben to a bloody pulp! Ahhh memories!

David said...

Jin was back at the Beach with Bernard and Sayid ready to shoot the dynamite they had planted on the tents to blow the Others "to hell" when they came to take the pregnant women. I think it was his shot that missed actually and caused the Tom and the others to survive to capture them until Hurley plowed them down with the DHARMA Truck.

David said...

Snap Mikey!!

Mike V. said...

ahh good times! interesting to see 2 different explanations of the same story!

Mike V. said...

Latest Podcast with the producers is available...some interesting tidbits:

- Rousseau's crew went into the "Declevity" (can't spell it) of the temple when they went into Smokey's pit, and they came out different people. Something to take note of.

- The shot of the temple that we saw is the exterior, but you might have to walk some distance past that exterior to get to the ACTUAL temple. And they will be definitely revisiting this location.

- They had a good laugh about finally seeing Montaun lose his arm. And they made it extra "tragic" that he was the violinist of the group lol

- the 6th episode written for the season was actually "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" and the 7th episode is entitled "316" but both were written simultaneously. The producers decided to air 316 first because there is information in that episode that they felt would be helpful when watching "bentham." They said this happened only one other time in LOST and it was way back in season 1. I can't think of what episodes it could have been!

- Question asked if Dan's ex gal pal Theresa is in fact consciousness time traveling. They said that it is a very perceptive guess and that if they were us they'd hope we'd see Theresa again to get that answer. And they confirmed that we WILL see Theresa again.

- another fan question: Was Christian Shephard's body on flight 815 any factor of the plane ending up on the Island? Also they mentioned that they know the producers said that Christian Shephard is definitively dead, but is he more than just an image the island is using to communicate. They said it was a well thought out and excellent question but they can't answer it. They also said that in the next episode "316" someone might mention Christian Shephard's body in conjunction with John Locke's body...and then said the word "PROXY" might be used. hmmmmmmmm

- Back to "The other Woman" when Harper mentioned Juliet looked just like it about Ben's Mother or Ben's Childhood friend Annie? They said they're asking the right question and that the answer is coming. Damon said that his therapist says his mother is the only thing that matters lol

- Damon and Carlton if you could write Star Wars episodes 1-3 what major things would you change? Time was wrapping up so they just said "let's start with Jar Jar! the equivalent of Nikki and Paulo" lol good times

That was good stuff, I encourage everyone to subscribe to The Official ABC LOST Podcast on itunes or check it out at They are highly entertaining and sometimes informative like this one!

HurleyAteMe said...

Does anyone have any thoughts on the following ideas.
1)Could the Smoke Monster have taken over Christian's body like it did Mr.Echo's brother before Mr. Echo was killed, His brother was dead before the plane crashed on the island but he was seen in normal appearance by Mr.Echo just as Christian is seen alive.
2)When Christian told Locke, hello to my son, Could he have met Baby Aaron and not Jack.
3.There has to be some tie in to Christian and the power on the island, remember he appeared on the frighter and told Michael, it was ok to die
4.)one last comment, has anyone else noticed that Locke's nose is the only not to bleed of the original survivors?

HurleyAteMe said...

Mike V
do you think declevity could unscrambled mean

Mike V. said...

Hurley Ate Me:

"Does anyone have any thoughts on the following ideas.
1) Quite possible. That is a common theory for the ghosts on the island. And remember in a Jack flash forward last season when Christian came to visit him...the smoke alarm went off. I didn't think this was coincidental!
2)I don't think Chistian would've been referring to Aaron, since that's actually his GRANDSON!
3.) agreed
4.) I actually mentioned this in the blog too. But we both forgot to mention that Jin hasn't had a nosebleed yet either!

As for Devil City?? I guess it's possible, but considering I'm not even sure I spelled the word right in the first place, I'm not so sure! lol

Anonymous said...

Mike, love, LOVE your recapping style. Much better than mine I must say. However, I do want to include my thoughts for your (or others....pun intended) opinion. Much of what I'll say here has already been reiterated by you but I do it for myself, my sanity (or what's left of it) and my hopes that one day, I too, will be free of a real day job. : > ) I have, however, added a few more details of what I think are a significant value and am hopeful that my lengthy verbiage doesn't get in the way of reasoned discussion.

So, here goes:

Maybe the best way to approach an episode this busy is to break it down into what we now know, what we might suspect, and what we have no frakking clue about. In order...


• We've now seen, in short, time-travel assisted order, what happened to the rest of Rousseau's group. The "sickness" wasn't the time-travel malady that killed Charlotte (or the similar one that killed Fisher Stevens), nor whatever was killing all the pregnant women; instead, they had an early encounter with Smokey, some died instantly, and others were somehow brainwashed by the monster (or its keepers), and Danielle killed them.

• Ms. Eloise Hawking and Faraday's mother are, in fact, the same person. Still no confirmation on the theory that Eloise and Ellie the Other from "Jughead" are also the same person, but it seems pretty damn likely.

• Charlotte was born on the island, something bad happened to her father (who I'm assuming will turn out to be a significant figure from the island's past), and her mom brought her back to the States. It was unclear from her dying monologue whether her family was part of the Dharma Initiative or if they were in the group that clashed with Dharma, but she was there far back enough to know about the well that pre-dated the construction of The Orchid. Also, we know that Dan, in the course of his time travels, will appear to a young Charlotte in a futile attempt to keep her from ever returning. (This either suggests that Dan will, down the road, find a way to bend the closed-loop rules, or he'll be so consumed with his grief that he'll try to pretend the rules don't exist.)


• In 2005 on the island, Locke takes Jin's wedding band and promises to tell Sun that Jin is dead. In 2007 on the mainland, Locke is dead, Ben has the ring and tells Sun -- who had an encounter with Locke in which he apparently told her nothing about Jin one way or the other -- that Jin is alive. So I'm assuming John did his best to honor his promise to Jin, that his path crossed with Ben's, and that Ben once again got over on John -- either because he thinks it's his only way back on the island, or because he believes Locke was too bound by emotion (like his promise to Jin) to get the job done right.

• We get our first look at the much-discussed Temple, which is where many of The Others headed towards after abandoning New Otherton, and Rousseau's baby daddy Robert clarifies Smokey's role as a "security system," saying that the monster is specifically there to guard that Temple. But who built the Temple, who made all the funky hieroglyphics (which, as I recall, match some of the symbols from the hatch, no?), and what is it there to worship?


• Christian claims that if Locke had moved the island, none of the time-skipping would have happened (maybe because John is stronger than Ben and wouldn't have had to knock the donkey wheel off its axis to move it?), yet now he insists that John has to get the entire Oceanic Six to return. I'm still waiting for clarification on what caused this mess, but I do find it amusing that, even as he's reminding Locke of the folly of listening to anything Ben has to say, Christian is in lockstep with Ben about the necessity of having everybody return.

• Along similar lines, did Locke's re-alignment of the wheel do anything to stop or even slow the time jumps? If so, I can't imagine there being a point to bringing the Oceanic Six back, plus, we'd need an alternate explanation for how Dan winds up back in the glory years of Dharma (and maybe even further back). Then again, we still don't know for sure that Dan hasn't already time traveled, which would explain the whole "Desmond will be my constant" entry from his notebook.

• We know Aaron has to come back, but what about Ji Yeon? Does the island, or the forces governing it, consider life as beginning at conception, birth, a specific trimester, or what? With the tight deadline Ben has -- not to mention the complication of springing Hurley from jail and convincing him, Sayid and Kate to join him -- I don't think a round-trip jaunt to Korea's doable. (And who else immediately yelled, "What about your poor daughter?" as soon as Sun agreed to go with Ben?)

• Also, does Desmond need to go back, also abandoning a child in the process? He's not one of the Oceanic Six, nor did Ben seem to be factoring him into the plans to return, but Desmond did leave the island under the same sketchy (by island rules) circumstances, and Ms. Hawking did act like he belonged in the group of returnees.

• How large of a fillet knife am I going to need to take care of Lindelof and/or Cuse if the series ends with Ji Yeon and little Charlie both orphaned, or at least permanently separated from their parents?

Some other thoughts:

• I had assumed, after the aborted encounter in "Jughead" where Richard never got around to explaining how to leave the island, that John would have to encounter him in time again before figuring out. Apparently not. Then again, we know The Others travel back and forth pretty regularly -- even in the days before they had access to the Dharma sub -- and moving the wheel seems to have drastic consequences, so could there be a simpler exit route?

• We complain sometimes when characters don't share information, but an episode like this is a reminder that sometimes it's simply not possible for the characters to know as much as we do. Desmond's never so much as laid eyes on Ben that I can recall, nor does he know that Ben blames Charles Widmore for the death of "his" daughter, so he has no reason to immediately bolt at the sight of the little weasel, or to put a bullet between Ben's eyes. (I, on the other hand, had no problem yelling for him to run and take Penny and Charlie far, far away from here. I guess the episode couldn't have been all that disappointing if I spent so much time yelling at it, could it?)

• How does Jin know where the radio tower is? He was part of the group (along with Sayid and Bernard) that stayed at the beach to ambush Tom and his crew while Jack led everybody else to the radio tower. I mean, he may have a general idea from whatever Jack was saying as they planned that op (was there a crude map drawn at one point?), but he seemed pretty confident in telling Rousseau and her people that he knew where it was.

• Maybe this should go up on the No Clue list, but what's the deal with the English-language recording coming from the radio tower? Like Rousseau's later French recording, it seems to be counting numbers over and over, but who left it? Someone from Dharma? Could anyone but the Dharma people have built the tower in the first place?

• And am I correct in remembering that The Orchid was in much better shape the last time we saw it in "There's No Place Like Home"? If that's the case, then this is at least the second time (counting last week's outrigger shoot-out) where Sawyer and company have skipped into the future.

• Smokey ripped a dude's arm off! Some parts of this show require deep analysis. That wasn't one of them.

Hope this doesn't disappoint. Keep up the great work Mike!

Anonymous said...

Hey Mike,

Love your work! You had asked if anyone could translate the heiroglyphics and I came across this....

Hope that helped, and I was wondering if you think the island has anything to do with Atlantis... if in fact the island is Atlantis...

thanks Mona

Anonymous said...

I had a revelation about Miles the other day...I think he is the son of the Asian Dharma Collective guy in the films...remember the scene with him feeding the baby and getting ready in the morning a few episondes back? Also, Daniel had asked Miles if he had been on the island before since his nose started bleeding earlier than the Oceanic people...just a theory...

Anonymous said...

Great comments,I agreee that Charlotte might be the girl that remembered Ben's birthday when he was a child. I wonder who was her father? Charlotte speaks Korean becasue if she was raised in the island she learned it from the Koreans that were there? or as an anthropologist she decided to learn different languages.

I have a theory, I think the word that appears on the van "canoton...." which backwards is re encarnation has alot to do with what is happening. I think these people are been re- encarnated perhaps in their same bodies different ages or in different bodies. For example the rat "Eloise" Perhaps when the flashes are going on they have memories of different times intheir re-encarnated jouneys.It is interesting that Mrs. Hawkings "lives" in a church and that this van has that logo re-encarantion spelled backwards.

Crazy thoughts but it is a crazy plot.

Mike V. said...

Man that's a lot of overnight writing! lol Thanks Mona on the glyphs translation...still have no idea what all of that means! lol
Atlantis has been thrown around before as a theory. I guess you never know, but I'm thinking this is something different.

Tin Man, thanks for the compliments, your recapping style isn't too bad either! Naturally, I can't respond to all of it. I did want to note that if it's 3 years after they get off the Island, then Locke would be dead in 2008! Also there is a LITTLE to write about Mauntaun (or Montaund however you want to spell it!) losing his arm! Rousseau mentions it in season one and the producers have jokingly been obsessed with telling that story ever since lol.

Good point about Desmond never really ever meeting Ben. He's definitely HEARD of him (sayid interrogating Michael on freighter comes to mind)....but the scene kinda worked anyway because Jack and Sun were there and Desmond does know them too I guess.

I agree and commented on the blog about Jin knowing where the radio tower is. I think we just have to let that one slide! And I'm sure they'd explain it by saying he never really got Rousseau to that tower!

You're correct about the Orchid...the place definitely looked run down!

I guess time will tell if Locke moving the wheel "FIXES" time but I would think bringing the Oceanic 6 and Dez back serves a larger purpose. They keep saying "they weren't supposed to leave" which I think means they have a destiny to fulfill on the Island still. So even if they fix the crazy time flashing they're stuck in...there is still something that needs to be done on the Island. And now that Jack isn't afraid of his destiny anymore, they can progress towards this goal (by the end of season 6). But hey, what do I know??? Here's a big question....when the O6 return, what TIME period will they return to? And when the LEFT BEHINDERS stop flashing, what time period will they be stuck in? From pictures I've seen of later episodes this season (entertainment weekly last week)...I have some theories....but I don't want to SPOIL! Also, I guess we are to assume that GHOSTS transcend time? Or is it the fact that the DONKEY WHEEL is not in a particular time? That might make sense because when the Island flashed with Locke in the Well....he just fell....but where sawyer and crew was just a bunch of dirt. It would seem that Locke was no longer in a time flashing zone but in a place that stood still in time. But again...these are rather large assumptions!

okay...i think i went off on a tangent and just realized I need to leave for work!

But thanks everyone for your comments and compliments. Keep up the great discussion and I'll check in later!

Unknown said...

I have a random question, when Ben and the "natives" took out the entire Dharma Initiative, we assume that they knew about all of the hatches correct? So how was there still someone working in the hatch from the DI when Desmond arrives on the island (same guy from the US military who teaches Sayid torture methods). Also, if they wiped out the DI, who was sending the food drops from a plane that the oceanic survivors found? These two plot points would make it seem like the DI wasn't completely destroyed, unless someone else was in charge of the hatch when Desmond arrived?

Mike V. said...

Ive had the same question since we learned how the Purge went down too. We can't forget KELVIN was in the hatch too. When did he come?

Food Drops we'll find more about this season hopefully, so maybe we'll get more info of how that wasn't impacted by the purge!

Anonymous said...

Do we know if the act of Locke turning the wheel is what is supposed to stop the flashes or is it the combination of turning of the wheel, going to 2008 LA, and bringing back the rest of the Losties that is supposed to stop the flashes?

If it is just the act of turning the wheel, then how will Dan travel back in time (to talk to Charlotte and to show up in the Orchid during contruction) now that Locke has reset the Donkey Wheel?

And you are probably tiered of hearing this (or maybe not), but I just love your blog. I have been reading this for the last couple of seasons and it is the first place I go on Thursday mornings! I prefer your recap over others, because you don't pretend to understand exactly what is going on and it is nice to know that I am not the only one who is totally baffled this season. Keep up the good work!

HurleyAteMe said...

Mike V
My point earlier about Christian possibly referring as Aaron is is son he wants Locke to say hello to is out there and along the lines of a theroy. What I meant was what if Baby Aaron is like a RomeMary's baby, and is a sacrifical type baby to lead whatever Christian respresents (good or evil) I believe evil. He would then look at Aaron as his son. I believe it is safe to say that Christian is not a real person that some higher power is using his body to communicate With Locke and in that case he wouldnt be saying hello to Jack. Like I said it is out there :)

Mike V. said...

Thanks for the complimetns Jenn. This may be a little ego-centric but I never get tired of hearing good things about the blog! I'm glad people enjoy it! At least I know I'm not wasting my time doing it lol

Anyway, I don't think we know for sure if the flashes stopped or not. But I think if they DID stop...the interesting question is "WHEN" will they end up? What if they end up back in the DHARMA period for an extended period of time? What if that's what was teased to us in the season premiere? We know Dan will be back there at some point...and now we know that he's going to talk to Charlotte as a child. The flashes were happening at a progressive it would seem to me that there is no way that Daniel could've made it back to that time period and have been working as a DHARMA construction guy if he was flashing every 30 seconds! So my initial thought leads me to think that they'll stop moving and end up in the past. We'll see!

Hurleyateme - you're right, it's definitely an "out there" theory! But that's the beauty of LOST. It allows us all to come up with some really crazy theories to explain what's going on. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm quite sold on that one! Some things I just think we're meant to take as they're told to us. If Christian is saying "say hello to my son" he's talking about Jack. And by him saying this, I would think Locke is going to assume one of the people he is visiting is Christian's son. And I'm going to guess Locke will assume that Sayid is not Christian's son! lol Either way, I think we'll find out in the "Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" episode.

And I can't believe I forgot to bring this up in the blog. what do we all think? Will Locke be wheelchair bound off the island or not? We already know his leg is busted up from falling into the cave. And we know that Ben kept his injury when he turned the wheel. So it will be interesting to see where and when he ends up....and how he's going to get around!

HurleyAteMe said...

Mike V
good question on the handicap question, My guess is, he is walking, I also wonder if Locke gets thrown out into the desert like Ben. If not that is going to open up alot of questions. I also would ask you, how do you think Locke/ Jeremy really dies? I think Ben will kill him!!!

Mike V. said...

Wow...I didn't even think about Ben killing him. That's entirely possible since Ben was being so secretive about meeting with him. Also interesting that Ben asked Jack if Locke told him what happened to everyone that was left behind and following it up with "Then I guess we'll never know"......Maybe Locke DID tell Ben. And also...why would Locke confide in Ben and willingly give him Jin's ring after finding out that Ben wasn't supposed to move the Island? If Ben killed locke, then he may just take the ring off of him.

I guess there's always crazy Matthew Abbadon out there too who told Locke he'll owe him one after he goes on his "walkabout"....We know we haven't seen the last of him even though he's working full-time on FRINGE these days.

And of course, there's the SUICIDE route.

In any case, I still wonder how Christian Shephard died in Australia too. This seems to be a story that needs to be told. And since the producers are hinting that there is some kind of linkage to Shephard's body, Locke's body and "getting to the island" has to wonder if both didn't die in a similar fashion?

I also wonder if we'll run into a young christian shephard on the island in their travels to the past. We know that Widmore took up drinking when the nightmares started...and we know Christian Shephard was an alcoholic. So might be some linkage there!

whew...and that my friends is what we call me rambling once again!

Anonymous said...

Mike V.

Great job on the blog. Your recaps are great and gets me thinking on things I would have never thought of.

Quick question regarding Mrs. Hawkins......Didn't she tell Ben that there would be dire (spelling) consequence if he did not bring back all the O6er's. But yet at the end of the episode she says, "Alright! Let's.....get started!"

Doesn't the last sentence contradict everthing she says in episode 1 of this season. She makes it seem that it is ok to bring tham back seperately. Maybe I am looking into this too much. Let me know what you think.

Anonymous said...

For my brother and I, one of the big points under consideration is if Christian is really Christian or is he Jacob taken human form ot Jacob's mouthpiece? My brother believes Christian is alive (and him telling Locke to say hello to my son ain't going to help my POV on this point!) because his body was NOT in the coffin when Jack found it in the first season.

I believe, and for me this episode only confirms it, that Christian is simply just the mouthpiece for Jacob. I really believe Jacob IS the island. He is the lifeforce behind it and I'd be happy, just fine, if they never explain him and keep it vain. I like the mystery of Jacob. The fact that he kind of dislikes Ben, while clearly favoring Locke (as does Richard), just makes Locke a true leader which maybe Ben could never be because of his own faults as a man.

One of the things that is also constantly in my mind, as well as my brother's, is this: Is Locke truly dead, a sacrifice as Christan/Jacob told him in the last minutes of this episode? My brother feels that once Locke's body gets back to the island, he'll be back a la Star Trek III. I really think it'd be genius to keep Locke dead. Period. And that we only see him in flashbacks from here on out. Don't get me wrong. Locke is my fave on the show, but it'd be pretty genius to have him stay dead.

I think this was the best episode of the season so far. This is going like a rollercoaster. The hours seem to be flying by at top speed and it is such a nice change from the feel of seasons past, which I loved, but it's nice to see just how slick this whole thing can run.

Finally, I think the temple is all about Jacob. I know I'm beating it to death here, but he IS the island. He has to be. Can it be any other way?

Anonymous said...

I liked this episode more then The Constant. In fact,it is probably going to be my 2nd favorite episode of Lost after Through the Looking Glass.

When Christian Shepard tells Locke that he has to sacrifice himself the look on his face is amazing. This is a man who believed he had a greater destiny on the island and now that he realizes that his destiny comes down to sacrificing himself, that realization is amazing emoted by Terry O' Quinn in 10 seconds. That whole scene was beautifully done, terrific acting by O' Quinn.

Furthermore, the score of Lost is simply put some of the best music you'll hear in any TV show today. I love how your emotions can range from excitement to sadness to rage to romance to shock in just a few bars of excellent musical taste.

I know the actors are wonderful and the writing is awesome but whoever is behind putting the music together is really really good and doesn't get enough credit IMHO.

By the way, good job MikeV!

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else think it's strange that Charlotte said, "That's why I became an anthropologist... to find this island again." Anthropology is an interesting and wide-ranging field, but how would it tie into someone's ability to find the island? It's not exactly heavy on science or even geography, necessarily. It's much more focused on history, culture, and the behavior of societies. Those ideas certainly tie into the show, but what was Charlotte hoping to gain in that field that could lead her back to her childhood home?

Anonymous said...

WOW! What a wonderful gift to all the obsessed fans that have been pouring over every tiny detail of this crazy show since season 1. From the name Brennan (heard all the way back in the pilot!), to the numbers broadcast, 'the dark territory ... where Montaud lost his arm', Robert not knowing she took out the firing pin, and vindication for Rousseau killing her team as they were changed somehow and he tried to shoot her! The writers put it all in there, every little Danielle tidbit going back to very beginning of the show. Even the scene of them debating Alex's sex was a nice little nod to way back when the child's sex was debated among the fans. The best part is all the Rousseau answers get neatly couched in a fast-moving, action paced episode that covered a ton of key events (a major characters dies! Locke leaves!) and managed to touch on every major aspect of the show's mythology in some way: monster, temple, dharma numbers, and so on!!!

Anonymous said...

Good thoughts all.

I think Rousseau's described "sickness" is not an ailment at all but rather a major change in perspective brought about by something that is learned about the Island, either from the Temple or contact with the smoke monster, or both, that leads to the fanatical obsession with the Island displayed by so many characters on this show.

This is probably what happened to Rousseau's teammates - and I think Ben has the sickness too. I don't think it's a coincidence that both of Alex's fathers were willing to see her die because they felt it was in the best interests of the Island.

I think Locke may also be partially afflicted - remember his face-to-face encounter with Smokey in season 1? It was only after that that John started becoming a little loopy.

I think Charlotte, dream Claire, Desmond and Jin are all correct - a return to the Island is bad news for all parties involved.

Anonymous said...

Put me down in the area of a big Y..........A............W..............N for this week.

I feel we should have gotten much more time with Rousseau, or seen her over a longer period of time. That would have made a great flashback episode, covering her arrival, the loss of her team, the birth of Alex, and the loss of Alex to Ben. But instead we just got a rush job.

Likewise, I don't know Charlotte enough to care about her. I don't understand her motivation for returning. We might see more in the near future when Dan shows up in the Orchid, but it still feels weak. Once Charlotte told Dan he saw her as a child, why did he not tell her, beg her, to use him as her constant? Do constants not work for this? And if so, how is Desmond Dan's constant?

Even last week, when Miles got the psychic nosebleed and Dan suggested the nosebleeds were correlated with the time the traveler had been on the island, wouldn't the logical conclusion be that it was a negative correlation? Both Charlotte and Miles's return arrival was the most recent of all, and neither knew about their past visits. It seemed a case of the characters relying on knowledge the audience suspected.
Except for some of Jin's scenes, this episode was nothing but moving pawns. Like I said, YAWN!!!

Anonymous said...

Ok Mike V, I have a theory that I would love to hear your opinion of. I haven't heard of this one anywhere so here goes.

What if Ms. Hawking and Mr. Widmore are ex's? Obviously they are of the same age and he definitely knew where she was in L.A. since he told Desmond of such.

But just think about this:
Could Charlotte's mom be Eloise as well? And if Eloise is the Others' Ellie (which I think we ALL believe it to be), perhaps Widmore is Charlotte's biological father.

Maybe Ellie and Widmore had a falling out, so she took her daughter away and defected to the Others. This would make Charlotte and Daniel at least half siblings, which seems unlikely considering Daniel told Richard he was "in love" with her a couple episodes ago. But, aside from that proclamation, Daniels affection for Charlotte never seemed all that passionate to me; more of a protection, older brother type of affection. But maybe Daniel doesn't know Charlotte is his sister. If they're full siblings, and Widmore is also Daniel's father, that would go further in explaining why Widmore was funding Daniel's research, not to mention his ex-girlfriend's life support. This theory would also have Daniel and Charlotte related to Penny which throws another cog into Ben's revenge plot.

I know it's farfetched and is especially so when you put the young Emily next to a picture of the grownup Charlotte. They look the same person to me.

But who knows? If this is all true, you can say you heard it from me first Mike V. lol

Anonymous said...

Ok, here's what I don't get. When this show has completed its six season run, will it all have really just been about about keeping these six-eight characters alive? So far as I can tell, that's the only thing getting everyone back to the island will accomplish. I'm not really complaining, because the show is extremely entertaining, but I guess the first couple of seasons sort of led us all to believe something really big and important was going on with the island, but now, not so much. Looks like it's ultimately just going to be about whether these characters live happily ever after.

As for this episode, pretty good. Although still not crazy about the fact that the time jumps are being conveniently used to resolve so many questions and/or backstory. Seems like a lazy writing device to me.

One other note, the fact that Farraday doesn't remember, and (until he knew of her death) didn't have a reason to warn Charlotte not to come back to the island. So to me, that means he'll still be time traveling as the story moves forward, so Locke's spin of the donkey wheel must not be what stops the time jumps. And if Charlotte's comment that Farraday was " a crazy man" is any indication, it appears that the time jumps won't end anytime soon , as I assume it takes a while to descend into madness.

Anonymous said...

I am believing big-time on the aspects of the power of the donkey wheel as it relates in totality to the moving of the island and the experiences the LeftBehinders have experienced of late.

When we first saw the frozen wheel it was in some sort of ice cave, and we do know that there used to be polar bears on the island. So maybe when the Dharma Initiative first found the wheel, they decided to use the polar bears to move the island when necessary, so that they would not have to lose a human worker while moving it.

It would be the only answer, because when Charlotte found the polar bear skeleton in the episode "Confirmed Dead", of Season 4, it had a Dharma collar on it. So when Benjamin Linus "moved" the island the moving transported him to the same desert that the polar bear was when it moved the island. The producers have confirmed in an interview, that the place Benjamin was moved to was not the exact place as the polar bear skeleton was but was in the same region.

Another thing: In the episodes "The Little Prince", and "This Place Is Death", we all saw Montand for the first time, as well as Brennen. In the Season 1 episode " Exodus Part 2", we can hear Danielle say, "This is where Montand lost his arm...", so we now know how and why he lost his arm. In "Pilot Part 2", we first heard Danielle's distress signal. I am sure you have all heard what it said: "Brennen took the keys, and... it's right outside...".

Thus, we now know that Cerberus or the "Smoke Monster" was around in 1988 and it really was a security system. Rousseau said the it was protecting the island but when she had killed Brennen and Lacombe, Robert believed it was protecting "that Temple", and she thought it really was a "Monster". Yet, in "Solitary" she said to Sayid, "There's no such thing... as "monsters..."; so it looks like she did come to realize it was in fact NOT a monster.

One last thing: in the last episode "This Place Is Death" we see at the end that the Frozen "wheel" has been tipped of its own axis after being pushed by Benjamin in the Season 4 finale. So with reason, maybe the island is moving because Jack, Kate, Hugo, Sayid, Sun, and Aaron had left the island, or maybe because when the island moved, the wheel was off its axis and now it has no absolute control whether or not it can turn. Hence, we have all these flashes in rapid succession.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, I forgot to throw this in. Has anyone ever thought that the numbers actually refer to certain individuals?

For instance, each of the Oceanic 6 has one of the numbers assigned to them for whatever reason. I mean look at this.

For example Jack = 23 because that is the row he was sitting in on the plane and coincidentally enough because Psalm 23 says, “The Lord is my Shepard”. Rousseau might = 16 because 16 years is how long she was on the Island. 42 could = Kate because her address is 42 Panorama Crest.

Now I'm not sure about the numbers 4 8 and 15 but maybe 4 will = Aaron because he'll be that age when he returns to the Island.

That leaves 8 and 15 for Sun and Hurley. Not sure of the connection yet but I think I'm on to something here.

Anonymous said...

Idiot me...I didn't mean the numbers were for the Oceanic 6, I meant they were for any individual on the Island. I know Rousseau was/is NOT one of the Oceanic 6 but maybe the numbers aren't so random after all.

Anonymous said...

Props to Mike V for a very nice usual.

Based on what we've seen recently, I have a theory for how the whole show will end... one that explains why the Losties have to come back to the island, and which would tie up a lot of loose ends. Since I'm basically making it up out of nothing, I hope it's okay to post it here. This is it:

Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and the rest of the core group of castaways... are the original Others.

See, at some point after they crashed on the island, a big time-travel wave sent them far, far back in time, where they actually became the island's original inhabitants. (Maybe when this occurred the first time around, Desmond did something that enabled them to break the can't-change-history rule -- but now it IS history, so it doesn't matter.)

The group would know how special the island is (and how some might misuse its powers), so they'd vow that they and their descendants would always protect it. (Maybe the heiroglyphics are a way of warning those descendants about what's going to happen in the future with folks like the Dharma Initiative, though they eventually lose the ability to read them. Heck, the four-toed statue could even be their way of honoring Locke and his constant foot injuries.)

In any case, now there's an infinite time loop in which the castaways crash on the island, go back in time to before the island was inhabited, and start the lineage that turns into the Others -- and then time keeps moving forward, to the point where the plane crashes again and the whole thing starts all over.

But during the cycle we're watching now, something happened to break this time loop -- maybe the magnetic explosion that went off when they stopped typing in the Numbers? -- and it changed current history, keeping them from going back in time. So now the island itself, or Jacob or whatever, is trying to set things right by bringing them back to the island, at which point someone will turn the time-travel crank and send them back into the past where they belong, resetting the infinite time-travel cycle. (Maybe that's why Ben is so anxious to help them -- if they don't go back, the Others will never have existed.)

Anyhow, that's my theory... The "Lost" gang becomes the original Others. And if that's not the way the show ends, it should be

HurleyAteMe said...

I would be disappointed if the show ended the way you suggest too. There will have to be some kind of tie in between time travel, good and evil and bibical references on the show. Not to mention how the Island problems have gotten all of these families involved. Think about family tree involved with some of the characters. (christian/jack/claire/aaron) Widmore/penny/desmond,now there baby)Sun and baby, and i think her father has ties to the island as well, Faraday/eliouse ,ben/danielle,alex
just some thoughts for discussion

Mike V. said...

oh my god....i wrote a long post....submitted it...and got an error. Then after being annoyed for 5 minutes, I wrote another long post....and tried to copy it so i wouldn't lose it....hit the wrong button and lost all of it again! UGH....don't think I can try a 3rd time!

So I just wanted to say thanks everyone for the continued compliments. I'm amazed at all of the new commenters we're getting this week. Keep spreading the word to all of your lost obsessed friends! And Keep up the great discussion. I'm trying to keep up with all of the comments!

Josh - since you asked for my opinion. I did hear the theories about Widmore/Hawkings being related or ex's....I heard theories about Charlotte and Dan being related too. It's definitely intriguing! My only issue is with 2 things. Jin and Sun noticing last season that Dan had the hots for Charlotte. And then this season Dan saying "I'm in love with the girl sitting next to me" And I just don't think you would say that about your sister, daughter or anyone related by blood to you! lol But you never know!

The rest I started talking about was agreeing with the intrigue of the LOSTIES being the original others. I actually was thinking about that recently too. I don't know if they could pull it off though. Are they the NATIVES from back in the DHARMA days? Are they the others from the 2004ish days? And we've seen others here and there but never the how would this work? Then again...if Adam and Even are in fact people we know (maybe Kate and Sawyer or Jack...or Desmond/Penny)....then maybe they were the original others from back in the day? (I do think Adam and Eve will end up being people we already know) They'd have to get stuck in the past...which is entirely possible!

The last thing I started talking about was the Smoke Monster infections....what if some of THE OTHERS had this infection too....kinda like ETHAN with his super strength..and the stealthy others that attacked the tail section? Seems to be on the right track. And then was it in this blog's comments I read someone saying that maybe LOCKE was infected too? (from way back in season 1?) I think that's a pretty darn good theory. He did start acting all crazy after seeing the monster (it was beautiful!!!)....he started sabotaging people's attempts off of the island...he welcomed the opportunity to go into smokey's pit of despair! And he seems determined to have a purpose on that crazy island. I like it!

Well I guess I tried to type it all for a 3rd time. Hopefully the 3rd time is the charm! lol Thanks everyone for the continued compliments and keep up the great discussion! I'll chime in when I can.

HurleyAteMe said...

Mike V, or anyone else
let me ask you this, If the Others and Locke have been infected by the Smoke Monster, ( which I also believe) Do you think
1. Juliett is infected?
2. Richard is infected?
3. Are they good, evil, ghosts or acting as puppets of Jacob or this Smoke Monster thingy?? lol

Anonymous said...

Amazing comments everyone! You make my Lost watching so much richer.

Peter said...

jus a quick note, not sure if its been mentioned, but i dont think roberts gun jamming was faith, didnt Rousseau mention to sayid in season one that robert hadnt realised the firing pin had been removed either.. tot that was pretty cool that it came together, altho it took 3 seasons lol

Miss Nutmeg said...

Hi again! Mike V, I'm not sure if you've heard/discussed about this already but! There's a theory floating around out there (wish I'd thought of it..hehe,taking this from the message boards) that Jacob is Christian's father, and grandpa to Jack and Claire, and great grandpa to Aaron!

I need to re-watch season 1, but do you recall this, there was a moment when Jack was getting married, and Christian wants to tell him something. He gives him a watch, which was his father's watch. But he never wore it..I'm going to look back for clues about Christian's relationship with his own dad.

Anyway, just wanted to pass that along to you and everyone here, sorry if you've heard it already! :)

Anonymous said...

It was great to see Desmond fluster Ben when he said that Eloise was Daniel's mother (whether Ben didn't know or did but was surprised that Des knew is open to interpretation.) I'm thinking Desmond may turn out to be the most important character of them all. He seems to be operating outside of the Widmore-Ben feud, unlike the rest of the losties. Given that he's the only one who can safely travel through time, I wonder if the show's resolution will involve Des solving things with Daniel's help, independent of whatever Ben and Widmore's goals are.

Anonymous said...

Desmond is certainly one of the most interesting characters out there but recently I've been thinking about Daniel's role on all this.

My theory (maybe a little too dark) is that everybody that is with Daniel now will die of the nose bleed (Sawyer start bleeding in this episode, for instance).

That's why we only see Daniel in the past on the first episode of the season, and why Charlotte only remembers him in the past (and also why he looks so crazy in that past; he has seen everybody he knew die!)

In my theory, Daniel and Desmond (the only ones with constants)will stop the time traveling of the island. Maybe to make it less depressing, they will stop the time traveling at the moment it started--on the day the helicopter left so that all the Losties will be alive.

But heck, what do I know? I still hold the belief that somehow Waaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllttttttttttt will become a main part of the picture in the end. LOL

Anonymous said...

In all the years I've watched this show, I've always loved John Locke. But his schtick (sp?) is really started to wear then one me.

Consider this: Locke's whole theme has been getting used, conned, hosed, and being wrong in his priorities his whole life. He was wrong about the policeman/narc boy, he ruined his relationship with that woman by obsessing over his father. His obsession about his father almost got him killed. He was wrong about not pushing the button, too, even though he was so sure.
What I've gathered from the last few episodes is that Locke isn't necessarily destined to be the leader of the Others. Rather, he created the idea of such a destiny HIMSELF by going back in time and telling Richard to come see him when he was born and by giving Richard the compass. Remember, Richard was resistant to the idea of Locke as leader. Richard's exasperation shows when young Locke fails the test. Young Locke fails the test because he was never meant to be the leader. Locke's ego and wrong headedness are what have lead to nothing but trouble.

Now to address Josh's thought from above (and Mike V's response... My guess is that Charlotte is Ben's daughter with his childhood sweetheart. Ben sent them away from the island before he gassed the rest of the DI. Ben took Alex to replace the daughter he lost and would never raise.

Anonymous said...

I wanted to say something about what Beth said about the numbers. I'm not sure if she's right on anything she said there but it is interesting.

I had heard somewhere that the person saying the numbers this past episode was none other than Hurley himself. I don't buy it and when I went back and re-listened, I am pretty sure it wasn't him.

Mr V...have you ever looked at this website....

It's pretty interesting in regards to how spies used numbers in the past wars and so on.

Shout out to my boy Desmond for FINALLY meeting up with Ben on-screen. With all those cameras in the various hatches, I'm convinced that Ben already knew who Desmond was but it's nice they got to meet at long last.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mike I have seen something that might be true or not, but here it goes. On season 2 episode 1 Man of Faith Man of Science, When Jack is stabalizing Sarah we see a quick glance at the guy who hit her in the car accident and I swear it looks exactly like Ben. He obviously died but if indeed it is Ben then why?

Mike V. said... guys can just call me MIKE! lol I just shortened my "posting name" to mike v. because i was tired of seeing my full name in the comments lol

Anyway...NS...I may have read that awhile ago about Jacob being Christian's father or even thought of it. I've thought for awhile now that Christian's story was essential to the LOST mythology and i think it's why they still haven't explained to us HOW or WHY he died in Australia. As for the WATCH...that was actually a WEBISODE (or mobisode) that preceded season 4 (you can find all of them on the season 4 DVD and probably still at somewhere). They said that the mobisodes aren't essential viewing...but then again...if you do watch it, it could add some weight to thinks that have already happened or have yet to happen. So maybe it could've been passed down the Shephard line. good stuff!

i think at this point with the numbers...there is no way they're going to satisfyingly be able to explain that. I don't believe that they ever have intended to. There was an "Extra-curricular game" between season 2 and 3 called the LOST EXPERIENCE (or something like that) where the ultimate reveal at the end of the game was the significance of the numbers. And it was told to us that they were numbers that were part of a formula that translated to the end of the world. Beyond that? I think they just keep bringing them up and showing references to them to make hardcore fans happy lol Kate's address was 42 something yes....but she also told Hurley in the season 1 finale that 23 reminded her of something too. I do love me some numbers, don't get me wrong! But I'm not expecting them to play a big part in the ending of the show! Interesting with Hurley being the one that might have recorded the message. I didn't look into hearing the message any more than us already knowing that Rousseau had told Hurley that they followed that transmission to the island. It was the transmission she eventually replaced with her distress call. Why the numbers where being transmitted? well that i have no idea...but since they were used for the SWAN hatch, i'm guessing it could be related! (so maybe i just contradicted myself...maybe there is more to answer there lol)

anyway...i wasn't addressing any particular question...just rambling as always! Thanks for the link Lindsay. It was a fun read!

Beatriz, I don't think it was Ben involved in that accident. The man was actually Shannon's father. Shannon's last name was Rutherford and so was the car crash victim. We also see this event tied together during Shannon's final flashback episode in season 2. We see Jack in the scrubs leaving that room with the same crazy hairdo he has in the season 2 premiere. I don't think they would try to confuse us by making that scene any more connected than it already is!

Although, I still wonder about Sarah's miraculous recovery...and the fact that she "supposedly" looks like Juliet according to Ben. (and juliet supposedly looks like someone called "HER" according to Goodwynn's wife!") but that's just my crazy theory that i'm unable to let go of! lol

okay..enough rambling for now!

Anonymous said...

I don’t believe that Ben is the father of Charlotte for many reasons. One being that he did shoot her twice and he did have prior knowledge of her parents (David and Janelle?) She also had siblings… I think she is definitely the baby of Pierre Chang. It explains why she speaks Korean and also explains why her Mom left her dad (the incident?) I also think that the island will become “unstuck” and that the o6 returning is only for some evil plan that Ben has.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mike...have you seen this article regarding Rebecca Mader (Charlotte))?,0,6200770.story

Some nice inside info there.

Anonymous said...

Or how about Jorge Garcia's blog:

or this one featuring interviews with Elizabeth Mitchell and Michael Emerson


Anonymous said...

I wanted to leave a comment about Charlotte and the way the Lost producers and PTB's have identified her work.

In real life, I am an anthropologist.
Anthropology has four sub-divisions. Archaeology is one of them. Most archaeologists also refer to themselves as such rather than anthropologists but given it's only a part of the discipline this varies from researcher to researcher.
It is also very plausible for an archaeologist or physical/biological anthropologist to uncover and study non-human remains. A human settlement or an area where human ancestors (not necessarily H. sapiens) lived is not only occupied by them and them alone. Typically other animal remains are involved; someone involved in the project studies them and that person could be trained in anthropology.

Paleontologists who work on fauna in time periods where humans and human ancestors might be found are often, though not always, trained in an anthropology department.

The writers biggest potential mistake was in referring to Charlotte both as a social/cultural anthropologist and as an archaeologist. Generally someone with a PhD or working towards one will identify with one or another but there are circumstances in which those two areas overlap. It's possible Charlotte is an ethnoarchaeologist. She may have remembered parts of the culture of the DI or the Others and by not finding living cultures to match her recollections began looking into ancient civilizations for parallels.

Not sure if my experience is helpful for Lost fans or a Lost forum but I just thought I'd remind your readers that there ARE actually professionals watching Lost who are as rabid a fan as anyone else. Thank you for letting me say my piece.

Mike V. said...

Thanks for the links Jay! good stuff. Loved Jorge's blog. I think I've seen it before, but I'm going to have to scope out that ep of Ace of Cakes! lol

Thanks Rachel for your input from an Anthropological (made up word? lol) perspective. Very insightful!

Can't write much now, but just wanted to throw out there that I went back and watched "SOLITARY" and "EXODUS PART 1" from season 1 (i.e. the major Rousseau episodes). It was crazy to watch Rousseau interrogate Sayid again now having the images in my head that we saw last week. Definitley had forgotten about Rousseau telling Sayid that the gun jammed for Robert just as it did Sayid (because the firing pin wasn't in) good call everyone that said that in the blog comments! And Stedman, now I remember why you wanted to see more about the Black Rock. Because Rousseau talked about the team being infected on the way back from the Black Rock.....when we actually saw them being infected by Smokey on the way TO the Radio Tower. I'm sure there is an explanation for the inconsistency...because Rousseau also said they made it 2 months on the Island before she had to kill them all. (or something like that) when Jin was probably 2 months later...and at that point they had already visited the black rock (maybe she didn't notice the symptoms until then)...and they also must've dug the hole for Rousseau's dungeon of doom! lol Will we get to see this stuff in another episode? probably that's a little disappointing. But, I guess we take what we can get!

I think a scene we still have a shot at seeing would be when the others take Alex as a child and then she is given to Ben.

Well, in any case, it was a good time to go back and watch those clips and I highly recommend it for anyone that has the DVDs. Or they may still be streaming at! (plus, you get to see Hurley build the Golf Course again in "Solitary"! classic episode!)

Anonymous said...

thought your blog was fantastic, really enjoyed it and really helped me to clear some things up in my head.
the one thing that stood out to me was this revelation that eloise is indeed faraday's mum, but i really liked how you linked this to the rat, and then also to ellie the other from 50 years ago. these are points that i failed myself to notice, but something that i've managed to pick out is that looking back to Jughead, it seems Faradays knows himself that he is talking to his mum.
im guessing he knows that his mum has been on the island at some time in the past, and i reckon he knows that she is some 'big-wig' with regards to the island. what shocked me was his line when she is walking him off to the bomb, "you look like someone (faraday pause)(sigh) i used to know"
i just point this out as this amazed me xx

Anonymous said...

thought your blog was fantastic, really enjoyed it and really helped me to clear some things up in my head.
the one thing that stood out to me was this revelation that eloise is indeed faraday's mum, but i really liked how you linked this to the rat, and then also to ellie the other from 50 years ago. these are points that i failed myself to notice, but something that i've managed to pick out is that looking back to Jughead, it seems Faradays knows himself that he is talking to his mum.
im guessing he knows that his mum has been on the island at some time in the past, and i reckon he knows that she is some 'big-wig' with regards to the island. what shocked me was his line when she is walking him off to the bomb, "you look like someone (faraday pause)(sigh) i used to know"
i just point this out as this amazed me xx

Deebo said...

I still don’t think that it is possible that Sun knew that Ben killed Jin unless Locke told her when he came to see her. Maybe Locke would do so because he is mad that he talked him into turning the FDW. I also think that Ben will end up killing Locke and that he is dead. We know that Ben has an evil motive and that it serves himself. But I do believe that Christian’s story is untold and that it has some sort of connection to Locke’s situation. Maybe Ben killed Jacks Dad? Maybe they were going to replace Ben as leader and he felt threatened. Michael Emerson is the best actor I have ever seen tho!

Mike V. said...

New Doc Jensen

Be careful for spoilers, he puts them mid-sentence without much warning. I unfortunately read them both. I guess in the scheme of things they're not TOO bad!

Anonymous said...

dblasdell101 - interesting point you bring up on why Charlotte is probably not Ben's daughter. It could be said that maybe Ben did not know when he shot Charlotte - but then I do not see Ben knowing he has a child and NOT knowing all about that child given that we know he had been on and off that island many times. So I agree - Charlotte is not Ben's daughter.

Wow - it was hard to catch up on all the comments this week. Work was actually crazy last week and I had to wait to this week mostly - and it's taken me days now.

Congrats Mike - you're a hit ! LOL

Mike V. said...

Yeah, it's nuts! It's like when the blog blew up at the end of season 3 all over again. I'm not complaining!

Also, there's a Michael Emerson interview on It's a good time!

Chris Stedman said...

Not near as nuts as the “Meet Kevin Johnson” comments section though. Those were good times lol.

Mike V. said...

you wouldn't be referring to the grand CDSTEDMAN vs. The ADDICT battle would you? Was that when it reached the boiling point? lol

Chris Stedman said...

That would be the one. lol

Anonymous said...

You want more Mr. Mike? Try this on for size.

Something that has always been a great focus of the show LOST, from the beginning, is the idea of black and white, and what they come to represent. When Jack found Adam & Eve in the caves, he picked up the black and white stones, and forever now the debate has been raised over who these two people are, especially now that we know for sure that time travel is most definitely a part of the show.

First, let me convey my own ideas I’ve had about time travel (if it were ever to happen), and how I believe (thankfully!) The powers that be have decided to make time travel ‘work’ on the show.

The major point is that you cannot change the past, and this is crucial… because then people raise the question ‘Well can you change the future? Is the future not just, in essence, someone else’s past?’ This is a very good question, but can be answered, in my opinion quite simply. Whatever you do when you travel to the past, this has already happened, so when we see Sawyer view Claire’s birth, we can always assume he was there.

In truth, you can do whatever you want in the future, just as you can in the past. What you have to account for, however, is the fact that this has already happened, and we the cunning viewers know already how some things have turned out. TPTB don’t mind throwing some crazy ideas our way though, and one such instance is the compass that Alpert gives Locke. Alpert gives Locke the compass, so that he will believe it is Locke, because he knows that Locke gave him the compass to make him believe him, which Alpert then goes onto doing. This compass has no maker, it is just an object that exists, and is necessary.

The same thing goes for the black and white rocks that Jack picks up, we are led to believe. I would not be in the least bit surprised if (this is if Jack is ‘Adam’) Jack lays down in the cave with Kate or Juliet at the end of season six only to find that he has put on a pair of trousers that just happen to have the stones he found way back in season one in. You get the idea? Jack passes two people dying in a cave, who he then realises must be Adam and Eve that he sees in the future, and for whatever reason, lays down the stones he found before. It is a necessary act, and invokes the necessary existence of the stones.

The island is allowing the instances of the stones and the compass to happen, perhaps because it figures into the greater plan of the island. Perhaps when Jack comes across Adam and Eve, or realizes himself as being Adam, he has an epiphany, and then finally makes the cross over into being a man of faith, as the island almost demands it of him. If the stones weren’t there, who knows what would have happened.

For the compass instance, if the compass did not exist, Alpert would not have gone to see Locke as a child and followed him through various stages of his life. It could be that Alpert is on the side of Abaddon who was the one that suggested first the idea of the ‘Walkabout’ to John Locke, bringing him to the island in the first place. Brought to the island because when he got to the island (and traveled through time) he told Alpert to bring him to the island… perhaps John Locke is the greatest mystery here, not in fact the compass.
The universe isn’t by all means ‘allowing’; rather, it is random and chaotic, and the fact we get out of bed in the morning and our feet don’t fall through the floor is viewed in the eyes of many well educated philosophers as a miracle.

The island is, in my eyes, the dominant force. It is the one allowing such events to take place in it for the greater good. The island is an amazing place, where ‘miracles happen’. To assume that the island’s intentions are bad would be to cast doubt on the whole show. I believe that even the child-bearing problems are the faults of those that are on the island, not the island itself.

Ultimately, it calls into question who the island is master of or master to! If the island is trying to instill faith in Jack, and to bring Locke to the island no matter what the cost, we can see that Christian Shephard is obviously not a good man. Recall that Ben believes Locke saw Jacob, and that Jacob told him to turn the wheel. (I would love to know what Ben would have thought if Locke said it wasn’t Jacob.) If Ben believed that Jacob must have been wrong in saying that Locke was to turn the wheel--because Ben knew that Locke was meant to come to the island--perhaps he also suspects something is amiss--not just that he thinks Locke misheard Jacob’s intentions.

Finally, perhaps it is Jack, the so-called man of science, that needs to have his faith instilled in him fully to be able to tackle his father, who in my eyes is a representative of the ‘bad guys’ on the island.

In summary, the island is ‘allowing’ the compass and the two stone paradoxes to occur, because they are necessary for the ‘final good’ so to speak. Christian Shephard is a ‘bad guy’ because he told Locke to leave the island, when Ben knows that this simply should not be the case, as Locke is the man the island wants because even Jacob asked for his help.

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to drop by and say how much I love this blog and forum.

Not much to say since I don't understand hardly anything that's going on with lost but I do wish that somehow, somewhere we could hear the sound of Charlie's voice once again, saying:

"Guys, WHEN are we?"

Mike V. said...

I wouldn't count a Charlie appearance out just yet! And that would be fantastic if he said that lol Thanks for the blog props. Also to Nath who gave compliments too. Sorry I'm slacking on my thank you's!

Bernie, nice little theory you have going there! And yes, I'm always game for more discussion on LOST! I agree that the themes of Black and White were very common in the early days of LOST and agree that the explanation of Adam and Eve is inching closer and closer. The producers have always said that they put Adam and Even there in season 1 so that when they one day explain what is going on on the Island...people could go back and be like "ohhhhhhh so they DID know what they were doing back then!" That's a good time! I'm not going to go as far as agreeing with your theory of WHO it is at this point. But I agree that it's probably someone we already know who is stuck in the past or even possibly CHOSE to stay in the past.

I also agree that we can assume that whatever has happened in the past....continues to happen in the past even when our future dwellers are there witnessing it. There is the whole issue over people having memories. I like Doc Jensen's explanation in this week's TOTALLY LOST on He's saying that BOTH parties have to have experienced the memory in order for both of them to remember. In other words...Dan did not remember Desmond visiting him in the past until Desmond actually did it. It's still kind of bizarre. Because if it already happened...then why WOULDN'T Dan remember it?

And why wouldn't Desmond recognize Dan on the Island during those initial flashes this season since it was 1996 Desmond that went to visit him? (granted he did seem to recognize him...and he said the same thing to Jack when he first ran into him on the island "do i know you?") And why didn't FUTURE/CURRENT DAY desmond REMEMBER the year in which he visited Dan at Oxford? There's lots of NOT remembering things going on!

Anyway, we're also told by the producers that this season, Dan's theory on time travel may not actually be correct. And that people will eventually try to put CHANGING THE FUTURE to the test. Which, might explain why Dan still tried to tell little girl charlotte to not come back to the island. But as we have already seen, Charlotte DOES come back to the island does that answer the question? lol yikes....headaches people...I think i'm starting to get a nosebleed!

Anyway, thanks Bernie for making me think too much! Can't wait to have my mind twisted again tonight as we see SOME (or all) of the Oceanic 6 try to get back to the Island! Ahh good times!

(did ANYTHING i just said make ANY amount of sense?)

LostFamily said...

What is happening to everyone else that was alive on the island when Ben moved it? The Others, who appeared and tried to kill our friends when the helicopter had landed on the island? We have to assume they are flashing through time as well each time - what are the ramifications of that? I imagine we're going to see them again (so far we've just seen Richard) and maybe learn? Or maybe it doesn't matter? Also, we haven't accounted for all our 815 survivors during these flashes. Just wondering.

Mike V. said...

@LOST Family - Not sure I exactly get who you are referring to with those OTHERS...but I"m guessing you're asking if THE OTHERS are moving through time with the LOSTIES....the answer is NO. It's only the LOSTIES that were left behind on the Island....i'll go one step further and say that Claire isn't moving through time either....but I will not reveal where she is or why she didn't! It's only gonna get more confusing...but it's still a good time! I keep things pretty straight and accurate in the blog so keep on reading! lol

As for an explanation in the show that the others aren't moving through time...don't forget Richard told Locke "I didn't did" when he sewed up the wound. (crazy that I remember what you have seen and what you haven't seen at this point lol)

It would be safe to say that you'll see OTHERS again....but I won't reveal WHEN or HOW! It all comes together nicely though (I least lol)

As for the other 815ers, I gave more information to that in my response to your Jughead question!

Sorry...I've been a little behind...I was out of town last week. Keep up the good work on your marathon LOST viewing!

I'm doing a similar thing with Battlestar Galactica right now. I had never watched the show and now I'm plowing through it's so good!! Talk to you in a future episode!

LostFamily said...

Thanks Mike for the confirmation - my daughter told me that the Others aren't moving through time with our LOSTIES but I wasn't totally buying it. But it does make sense that Locke (post-wound) did disappear and after that particular flash he was alone. What I don't get is WHY (I know, that word can be used after every episode!) the LOSTIES that were left behind are the only ones moving through time. There were other people on the island when Ben turned the wheel, so I guess I'm not getting why the flashes are only affecting the LOSTIES. Thanks for responding though - you're a prince to still be helping us latecomers get through the series!

Mike V. said...

I don't want to ruin anything with attempting to answer "WHY" right now...but in general, you just have to kind of accept that this Island is one "special" place where crazy things happen. Some things are not going to be answered in the end. But we do know that there are electro-magnetic properties on the Island and somehow it does tamper with space and time. Desmond's exposure during the hatch implosion has made him "SPECIAL" and certain "Time Travel Rules" (among other rules) do not apply to him.

Look at it more as a new plot device...a way to freshen up the show. Instead of using flashbacks to explore earlier times on the Island, they have the LOSTIES experiencing the events first hand. Yes, there will be somewhat of an explanation WHY...but maybe not to your satisfaction. I'll have to discuss it when you get further along!

But think about some of the stuff that has already happened in their time travels...Particularly Locke telling Richard to go visit himself in the 1950's when he is born. We saw that in a flashback in season 4. So now, we found out that maybe Locke initiated an event that would lead to his own arrival and adventures on the Island. Pretty cool concept right? What if the events that the LOSTIES play in the past led to their Island destinies? If Time cannot be altered and "whatever happened, happened" then these losties HAD to travel back in time. Because they were ALWAYS there. Confusing, I know....but as long as you don't think about it too's a cool concept. Just enjoy the story that they're telling because it's an awesome one! And it's gonna get even crazier!

No problem on helping you through the series. It's tough because I don't want to spoil anything, but I'm trying my best! Really though...I loved season 5 even more when I rewatched it. It's an outstanding season!

aly said...

Hi there Mike!

Wow, what an episode. Regarding your previous comment, I know when the show ended a lot of people around me were incredibly disappointed and said there were so many questions left unanswered so I am bracing myself for that and willing to let a lot of things just slide, like Henry Gale. Hell I probably would’ve never even remembered him if it weren’t for this blog, haha. I can let the frozen donkey wheel go too. I am so curious as to how it ends! I thought I was spoiled when it ended, but knowing what I think happened and what’s happening now, I just can’t see that being the case so I’m happy I can still enjoy the ride. I can even let go of the fact that Rousseau was conveniently telling Robert that he was sick IN ENGLISH and not FRENCH in this episode for the sake of Jin being able to understand, lol.

So here we go, thoughts on this ep:

- There is a lot of comments here that are wondering why Sun blames Ben for Jin’s “death” if Locke didn’t tell her what happened with crazy army guy. My theory is still that the Paik business is also somehow involved with the island and now that Sun has majority share of the company, she is privy to all this information. Which explains why she was also so creepy/shady in this episode. To which I still wonder if Sun was trying to kidnap Aaron, hence the creepy phone call to her Ji Yeon about how she met a new friend for her. Ha. I still think she lied to Kate about not blaming her and definitely think she did blame Jack/Kate, etc.

- Also, with the Paik empire being involved with the island, perhaps Charlotte knows Korean because she was also involved or somehow learned Paik is involved and learned Korean in the hopes of using Paik to get back to the island. Oh I don’t know. Speaking of Charlotte, wow. I did think she knew she’d grown up there after all. I still am not convinced she was born there (just brought at a later date), but we’ll see. I wonder who her parents are, but I don’t think they’re anyone we know yet cos didn’t we get their names from Ben? Didn’t recognize those names but can’t remember them so who knows.

- Speaking of Ben, omg Ben! I love this character! The thing is, if he’s really duped Locke for his own purposes/game plan into himself turning the wheel instead, why was he crying when turning it? He seemed so emotional to be leaving the island and with the whole “Are you happy now?” it really seemed like he believed that Jacob wanted him to do this and that he really didn’t want to, but had to in order to “save” the island. And with him protecting the O6 from troubles. Oh I don’t know. I have this theory that the island is actually “evil/bad” (aka the island is death) and the BEN is actually good after all. And that Locke never heard instructions from Jacob, that Christian lied and is working separately from Jacob and is also dark/bad and Locke is getting manipulated all over again. Also why Claire got all creepy when hanging out with Christian. And why Jacob said to Locke “HELP ME,” maybe Christian is attacking Jacob and Jacob wants Locke’s help, and Christian doesn’t want Locke to help and wants him off the island.

(lol cut off again)

aly said...


- Dezzie ends up back with Eloise Hawking and it seems that he too needs to return to the island along with the O6ers. Did Dan know this all along, hence why he needed him to find her? I don’t think so, from the conversation after he knocked on the hatch. It seems more like Dez is fated to do so, but it seems that Hawking knew it all along, and isn’t surprised to see him. She didn’t need Ben or anyone else to bring Dez to her, cos she knew he’d come anyway after Dan found him. Still, it seems she is estranged from Dan. For one, they have different surnames. For another, when Dan met Ellie in the past he said she looked like someone he USED to know. I guess it’s possible Ellie isn’t Eloise and we’re being duped again, but I don’t think that’s the case. I was gonna say perhaps Eloise died but because Dan told Dez to find her, it seems not. Maybe her consciousness is also stuck time flashing? Also, don’t think so. Just throwing crazy stuff out.

- Now let’s see. This whole “we weren’t supposed to leave”, the O6 not supposed to leave the island they are drilling into our heads… is it because they weren’t fated to leave and now that they have, time’s “course correction” isn’t working on them, hence why “bad things will happen”/are happening? Have the O6 broken the course correction in terms of time/fate? Perhaps Dan sees that and tries to find a way to change events that have happened, hence going back to little Charlotte to save her.

- More smoke monster! If this doesn’t get explained I will be disappointed! :P So let’s see, Rousseau’s crew “changed” after their smokey encounters. Perhaps they actually died in the incident, and were walking around like Eko’s brother or Christian Shepard or even Claire (though she’s not confirmed dead)? I thought I was on to something here, that the smoke monster takes the form of the dead (aka fire alarm going off when Christian visited Jack off the island) but perhaps that didn’t happen to Rousseau’s crew cos she definitely seems to have killed them. Oh I don’t know, argh. Maybe this ties into my whole Ben/Jacob is good, Christian/island/and now smoke is bad theory. Or maybe the island is neutral and can turn good/bad depending on who’s messing with it and has control, etc.

- OK, and my final thought! It regards Marvin Candle/Wickmond, etc. We saw the anagram for “reincarnation” outside the church where Eloise is. Well, there is the reincarnation theory in Buddhism and it is often explained by using candles. For example, line a row of candles together and use the same flame to light the next and the next. The flame is your soul and the candles are the reincarnations. So even though it seems to be different candle, it uses the same flame. Does this tie into why Marvin Candle goes by all those candle names? I could be reading waaaayy too much into it and be off base, but I thought it was interesting!

Anyway, thanks again Mike! I know I’m probably working through this at a slower rate than LOSTFAMILY and Miles did, but I’m getting there! Plus it gives me more of a chance to read all the comments and comment myself, lol!

Mike V. said...

Hi Aly! Sorry for the delay, weekends are tough to get a response in!'s definitely fun to speculate on everything, but I just wanted to set expectations that maybe not every t was crossed or every i dotted...and as the show's producers would's "just like life". lol But, personally, I thought that most of the show's big questions had answers. But people's expectations and theories had blown so out of proportion over the years, that they were bound to be disappointed. I was not!

- Interesting theory on Sun and Pail industries. She may have also surmised that Keamy was after Ben for Widmore and so anything that went was still because of Ben.

- No comment on Charlotte!

- I don't think Ben necessarily duped John into anything that time. But, to say more I may reveal more than I really should! It's more of a "look back at the show when you're done and discuss things" type of conversation. lol As are most of the theories you're throwing out there. Best I stay quiet!

- Fun theories on Eloise/Dez/Daniel! Crazy theories are always fun to throw out there. The more the merrier!

- Interesting time travel speculation with the Oceanic 6. It certainly will be tough to alter time based on the show's rules of time travel. Whatever Happened Happened! Of course, rules are meant to be broken. I will say no more. But you certainly will see my soapbox speeches in the comments about time travel. lol

- Rest at ease. Smokey is one of the major mysteries of the show. You will not be disappointed. You have some good theories going there and may be onto something but I will not confirm or deny!

- Hmm...maybe too much reading into Marvin Candle and his aliases but you will get more info on him too! As for the Reincarnation thing...I wouldn't say it is planted there unintentionally. But...another rule of the show is "Dead is Dead" that rule meant to be broken as well? Well, I don't know. :-)

Hey, everyone has their own pace with TV watching. Take your time and enjoy LOST. You'll have a little taste of what it was lie for us to wait so long between seasons, let alone week to week! And enjoy the comments...we had some great discussions!

Leta said...

I'm beginning to miss those filler episodes from earlier seasons where few important things happened. We (and the islanders too) just aren't getting any pause. I guess it was wonderful to get one amazing episode after another when the show originally aired, but when you're watching several of them per night, all the surprises get a bit tiring :)

My take on people not recognizing those they met in the past is this: each time someone travels to the past, the timeline kind of auto-corrects, incorporating changes that the time-travelers are making into itself. Thus people only get the memories after the time-travelling has happened. For example, Dan never knocked on Desmond's door in the original timeline, so Des does not remember meeting him. But when the islanders flash to the past, the timeline adapts to what's happening. Thus Desmond gets the memory at the exact same time the flash is happening on the island. Don't know if it's been addressed in your commentary at some point, but that's how I see it.
(Hmm, but it looks like Charlotte got a memory of Dan being in her past before he actually traveled to it... I'm confused again).

Dang... they actually killed Charlotte off. Didn't see that coming. A pity, I quite liked her. We did hear a bit of her story, though, and got an indication that there might be more coming.

Locke's mission... Wow, just wow. Seems like the flashes were originating from the donkey wheel! And by the way, this guy just can't get a break from all the leg injuries, can he?

Mike V. said...

Ok not much time to respond this time and I'm guessing you're gonna keep plowing ahead. But yeah it certainly was a fast paced season but it will slow down a bit don't worry! But yeah couldn't tell you about Charlotte earlier! But she left us with one bit of a twist!

Tough to explain the time travel stuff but you just have to think of time as no longer linear but think about experiences of the individual. And with Desmond things are a little different. Rules don't apply to him. Everyone else there are rules. So people that have traveled to the past can still die but if they ran into their past selves they can't kill them because that never happened. Whatever happened happened is daniel's current mantra. Of course that doesn't mean that is always the case or they can't put that to the test. It's better if I say less and just let you enjoy the ride! :-)

Doug B. said...

Man, oh man, this show has been moving at breakneck speed lately! I'm loving this season so far.

However, one thing happened at the end of this episode that really bugs me. Last week. Mrs Hawking made it clear that EVERYONE had to go back to the island, or "God help us all!" This week, she seems to imply 4 is close enough. What?!? That's a pretty drastic change of heart. I really hope they explain that one, and don't just gloss over it.

Prior to that, I'd been wondering what the definition of EVERYONE really was. The Oceanic Six, plus Ben, seem obvious. Apparently, Desmond is on the list, too. But what about Walt? He was on the island. Does he not count? Did he and Michael's means of departure somehow exempt them? When he came to LA to see Hurley, I assumed they were moving him into place to be ready to go with the others, but no one seems to mention him needing to go.

Also, are dead people exempt? Apparently, not, given the need to bring Locke back. But what about the "red shirts" who blew up on the Freighter? Maybe, like Jin, they washed back up on the island. I really can't see them addressing those people, though.

Also, I assumed that it would take pretty much the whole season to get everyone back to the island. However, at this pace, it seems like they'll be back by at least mid-season. That kind of has me intrigued as to what the focus of the 2nd half of the season will be, not to mention what timeframe(s) it will take place in. I kind of assume there'll be some kind of big showdown with the Willmore people, but isn't that what we had with Keamy last season? I've got to think about that one.

Mike V. said...

Season 5 is great! I'm sure you've seen me say it over and over again. So much fun to rewatch too when you're all done.

Hmmm....I don't want to say anything that might spoil what's to come, but maybe you'll be okay with how things go down with the 4 vs everyone stuff. lol

Interesting questions with Walt. I never really thought about that. Or maybe I did and just forget. I probably didn't think about it because I knew the actor was no longer a series regular but they did try to bring him back on occasion. The issue with Walt is that the actor aged much more quickly than the pace of the show. When they finally time jumped they could revisit his story but I don't know if there was really a place in the story they were telling anymore. I guess there could've been. I will say this...before all is said and done with finales and epilogues...Walt is addressed again. That's about all I can say!

Hopefully I'm not spoiling too much with my retrospective comments. Just trying to set expectations a bit.

Interesting thoughts with red shirts too....I think the idea of having Locke on the plane is to recreate a coffin with a dead body being in the plane. (Christian shephard) Granted...was Christian's body actually in that coffin? That's a debate for another time.

I don't know if you'll ever figure out what's going to happen, but it's fun to theorize! I think I had seen a production photo prior to the episodes airing so I had some idea where it was going. But, it's still nuts! Enjoy the ride!

Onigirli said...

I loved the sweet scene in this episode where Sawyer finds out Jin actually did survive. Just pure joy at finding out at least one of them survived the explosion (I never loved Michael but I felt a pang just now remembering he's dead).

Simon Sandiford said...

Wow... Another great episode and I'm looking forward to the next batch to be downloaded... My comment after watching it is thta we were set up earlier to think how important it is to get everyone together quickly... We ended up with everyone almost ready then we all went to the church... If it was that critical then why did Ben not try a bit harder to convince Sayid and Kate to go with them, especially the effort he had gone to to get Aaron there... I wonder if he had planned for Sun to be there... But then they arrive with less than expected and it is like oh well never mind... I'm sure given we have only had 5 episodes that there is more to do yet before they all travel off there.

Mike V. said...

That Ben, always up to something! Lol I don’t want to speak too soon on getting everyone there. I think there’s more information to come on why he wanted everyone. But with the island, sometimes fate/coincidence comes into play!