Wednesday, March 24, 2010

LOST: Season 6 Episode 9 - Ab Aeterno


Hello LOSTIES!  Well, there is just no way of getting around it this time kids.  WOW!!!!!!    WOW!!!!!!!     WOW!!!!!!!   Okay, whew, out of my system.  That was one epic episode don't you think?  Nestor Carbonell (Richard) and others had been hyping it up for weeks now and, in my opinion, it did not disappoint!  The show's harshest critics will still cry foul and wish there were more answers, but come on guys!  We got BIG answers.  It may not be the answers everyone wanted or in the detail that we anticipated but we got them.  And to all of the Flash Sideways haters, you got your wish as well!  In the great tradition of a couple of other episodes, this was mostly the backstory of one man with few clips of the present day.  (I refer to Desmond's time trippy journey to the past in season 3's "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and the story of what happened to Michael after leaving the island in season 4's "Meet Kevin Johnson")

Ab Aeterno, in Latin, means "Since the Beginning of Time".  We know Richard has been on the island for a long time.  This episode gives us the year in which he got there.  This was the grand backstory of Richard Alpert.  How he ended up on the Island, how he was tempted by the 2 opposing forces of the Island and kinda how he has not aged since he got there.   Of course, surrounding this story is lots of questions about artifacts on the Island, more background and solid answers on the Man in Black vs Jacob's motives.  And of course, more information on what is in store for our candidates.  Let's dive into our story now and see what we can uncover!

Team Jacob Campfire Discussion

Ilana Flashback
So, in the season that LOST has unveiled the Flash Sideways, the show has had to get creative in how show us backstories.  Well, one way is to sneak in a couple people's flashbacks into one episode!  This episode opens up with the Flashback we began to see between Jacob and Ilana in season 5's finale "The Incident".  Ilana is banged up and in bandages.  Jacob comes and touches her and tells her that he needs her help.  The story continues here before we join Jack and crew in the present day. 
  • Jacob tells Ilana that there are 6 people he needs Ilana to protect and this is what she has been preparing for.  So, a couple things stand out here to me.  Jacob gave Ilana the number 6.  Ilana tells Sun there are 6 remaining candidates.  Ilana also knows that John Locke is dead and that there are still 6 candidates.  So we still have the question on who the 6 are.  We know Kate's name isn't crossed off of the lighthouse.  So, we still have Hurley, Sayid, Jack, Sawyer as definites (even if Sayid is "claimed" right now).  Then there are one or both of the Kwons and then maybe Kate or Frank or whatever.  Ilana says she wasn't sure if Kwon represented both Sun and Jin.   But Jacob specifically says "6" people.  Oh well, whoever it is, they'll know if it's them that are chosen! 
  • The other thing was the whole concept that Ilana has been preparing for this day.  It would seem like  Jacob has had a team of people preparing off Island for the day that the candidates would be called to take over for Jacob.  Yeah, we could have assumed that, but it was nice to hear it from Jacob.  
  • It would seem like Jacob's first instruction to Ilana was to go to the temple and after that ask for Ricardus (Richard) and he will know what to do.  Maybe she was thrown off when she got to the Island and realized that John Locke was walking around on the Island?   So this led her to look for Richard first?  It sure seemed like she was trying to get to Jacob in the season 5 finale.   They found Locke's body, the went to the cabin, they got the piece of tapestry with the 4 toed statue on it and headed to Jacob's home on the beach.  There, they found Richard and THEN they went to the Temple.   
  • Oh well, probably too much speculation over something that probably isn't worth speculating on!   The point was Ilana was sent to the Island to protect the candidates and Richard supposedly knows what needs to happen next.
  • Note that during the conversation, Ilana heals pretty quickly.  We must assume this is Jacob's doing.   We still didn't find out why Ilana was in that hospital bed in the first place.  Will we?  Is there enough time?  Is it important?  I guess we'll see! 


Present Day - Jack and Crew get Caught up
The last we saw of our beach dwellers, Jack, Hurley and Richard had just arrived and teamed up with Ilana, Miles, Sun, Frank and Ben.  Note: This is the first episode we see Sun where she didn't mention Jin's name!   It is night and they are sitting around the fire.  It would seem that Jack has just been caught up on what is going on and that they are candidates to replace Jacob.  

  • Sun tells Jack that both of them plus Hurley are candidates according to Ilana.  Hmmm, Sun is taking some liberties there isn't she?  Ilana said she didn't know if Sun or Jin was a candidate.  But, I guess we assume she will be planning to protect both until she does know.
  • As always, you gotta love Frank's reaction to all of this.  Was he bitter his name wasn't mentioned when he said "Well, that's great"?  
  • Ilana has no idea what to do next but, based on her direction from Jacob she assumes Ricardus (Richard) does.   
  • Richard, whom we just saw with Jack wanting to die, can't help but laugh at Ilana asking him what to do. 

  • Richard is convinced now that Jacob is a big fat liar.  Based on the backstory we are about to get we see why Richard is convinced.  (Who else?  Smokey!)  And then he tells everyone on the beach his theory on what the Island is, and it's also based on his conversation with Smokey.  He says that they're all dead and that the Island is Hell.   Oh boy...cue all of the crazy theories again of purgatory.  Except this time, we'll skip right past purgatory and we'll just call it Hell!   Now, yes, I can see during the flashback that Richard may think this is the case but how does he explain leaving the Island and visiting John Locke during various stages of his life?  How does he explain going off Island to recruit Juliet or filming Juliet's sister?   How does he explain "retrieving the Man From Tallahassee?"   Does he now think that this was the Devil just messing with him and everyone and that the whole WORLD and ISLAND is all part of Hell?  Interesting, but I think we'd have a whole bunch of upset viewers if "They're all Dead" was the answer to the show!  We've already been down that road of theories folks! 
  • So, anyway, Richard is convinced that there is one man he can turn to for the answers now.  He's running to Smokey! 
What now?
  • Ilana is planning to go after Richard.  Jack tries to convince her it's pointless and that he's gone crazy.   
  • Jack, then finds out that John Locke is the man that Richard is going to.  Gotta love Ben's "ooooh this should be interesting" right before the reveal.  I was really hoping Jack would come face to face with Locke before finding out he was still dead.  But too many people on the Island know that it's Smokey now!  But instead he finds out that it's not exactly Locke.  I'm sure "off camera" he finds out it's Smokey.  
  • But in the meantime, we see Hurley talking in spanish to no one.  It took me only the first scene of the flashback to figure out who he probably was talking to but we won't go there just yet!   If anyone finds the translation to what Hurley was saying in this scene, please post it in the comments!  I'll add it to this bullet if I get it. 

  • Jack is convinced that Hurley is talking to Jacob and what's information as always.  But Hurley confirms it is not Jacob and that it doesn't concern Jack.   Hurley walks away and we'll see him later in the episode. 
  • Meanwhile Ben and Ilana have a little chat.  Ben says that Jack is right about Richard that he doesn't know anything.   Ben said that he has known Richard since he was 12 years old.  This might be the first time we got an age to go with how old Ben was when he first came to the Island.  We know that Ben and Richard met a little before 1977 so he is at least 42 years old maybe older (of course Michael Emerson is 50 but who's counting?).   Ahhh 42.  Coincidence? probably. 
  • Anyway, Ben explains how Richard doesn't age.  Frank asks how something like that would happen and then we WHOOSH back to the past!

    (Everyone note that it is a normal FLASHBACK "whoosh" sound and not the crazy Sideways "Wehhh ehhh OOSH" sounds we have been getting all season.  This is indeed a flashback and I indeed just trademarked the spelling of the Flashback and Flash Sideways sounds.   Give me credit if you use it!) 

Richard's Flashback

Tenerife, Canary Islands 1867

We begin our Richard story in 1867 on the Canary Islands, a property of Spain.  Well there we go folks, Richard is Spanish, not Egyptian, not English!  It turns out that Richard had a wife named Isabella and she was very sick. 


("A" marks the spot on the map in case you were interested)



  • First of all, let's do some math.  2007-1867 = 140 Years that Richard has been on the Island and not aging. 
  • Isabella is coughing up blood and burning up.  Things aren't looking well.  She gives Ricardo the cross around her neck to give to the doctor.   While Richard refuses she tells him to close his eyes and that they will "always be together."    

  • Richard promises to save Isabella and heads on his way to the doctor on horseback.  

  • We find out that Richard lives in the town of El Socorro which the rude doctor is not willing to travel to in the pouring rain.  He does offer medicine but for a very high price.  A price that Ricardo cannot even afford even when offering up Isabella's necklace.   Ricardo gets desperate and grabs ahold of the doctor who starts demanding he let go.  Richard accidentally pushes the doctor who falls and hits his head very hard on a table.  He is killed instantly.   This is very reminiscent of the way Desmond accidentally killed Kelvin in the season 2 finale. 
  • Ricardo does not hesitate, he has the medicine in his hand.  The butler with the blankets just stands there staring at the scene in front of him.  Ricardo bolts for the door, gets on his horse and heads back to Isabella.  But alas, he is too late.  Isabella has passed on.  Everything that Richard went through to get the medicine was for nothing, but has sealed his fate to his final destination.   By the way, excellent acting job by Nestor Carbonell to take on a Spanish role for the majority of the episode.  Of course, he is of Cuban and Catalan descent so maybe it wasn't too much of a stretch.  Regardless, excellent job!   



  • The authorities appear to have followed Ricardo to his home and bring him to prison for his murder of the doctor. 
Ricardo in Jail


  • We see Ricardo reading the bible in prison when a priest comes to offer him food and to hear his confession.   He requests to see Richard's Bible which we find out is in English.   We clearly get a shot of The Gospel According to Luke Chapter 4 verses 24-29.  Yes, 4 is one of the numbers.  When I looked up verse 24, ironically verse 23 (another number) was a famous and controversial verse in the English translation of the Bible.  It included the expression "Physician, Heal Thyself" which ironically was explored to a great length of detail by EW's own Doc Jensen back in January.  (I knew I had read that expression somewhere!)   He also refers to  chapter 24 (an inverse of 42) as a possible important motif to the world of LOST.  "No prophet is accepted in his own country."  Now, I'm sure there is tons to speculate with these verses and the other verses I didn't touch on.  But what I found most interesting is that Luke Chapter 4 (to borrow from the Doc Jensen article) is pretty much about "Christ entering the wilderness to be tested by Satan and it ends with Christ casting out evil spirits."   Now that sounds very thematic to this episode and possibly to this entire season or even the entire show.   So, I guess we all have some homework to read Luke Chapter 4 of the Bible.   Or we could just accept the overtones for what they are and keep watching the show!

  • We find out Richard has been teaching himself English and that he and his wife were going to travel to the "New World".  Interesting, were they still calling it that in 1867?  Wasn't it North America and South America by then? Didn't the United States of America exist by 1776?  Oh well, we'll let it slide!   Richard and Isabella wanted to start a family and a new life in the Americas. 
  • Richard does give his confession and explains the accidental nature of the doctor's death.  The priest does not accept the confession and will not absolve murder.  And he also said there is no time for him to repent for his sins because he is to be hanged the next day.  Since when do Priests not take a confession regardless of the sin?  So, going along with the whole theme of the episode the priest tells him that the devil awaits for him in hell.  
  • The next day arrives and Ricardo is taken out of his cell and blindfolded.  He is taken to a Mr. Whitfield who was intrigued that he spoke English, that he has strong hands and was interested in going to the "New World".  Richard used to work in the fields.  Whitfield pays the priest for Richard and claims him as the property of one Magnus Hanso.  Anyone who has been following LOST for awhile knows the name Hanso.  And you may even recognize the name Magnus Hanso as the man who owned/captained the Black Rock.  Of course, we also know that Tovard Hanso was the supposed owner of the Black Rock ledger to which Charles Widmore bought at an auction.  Alvar Hanso was a financial backer of the DHARMA Initiative and probably the grandson of Magnus Hanso.  So it was all related somehow!   So, as speculated for years and mostly confirmed a couple episodes ago we learn that Richard was on board the Black Rock when he arrived to the Island and we confirmed that he most certainly was IN CHAINS.   




Black Rock Voyage
  • So, we do not see much of the Black Rock voyage but we see enough to have some speculations. Richard is most certainly chained in with other Spaniards in the bottom of the ship.  They are traveling through some heavy storms and seas (very similar to Desmond's arrival to the Island).  



  • Richard asks another man if he can see anything outside a crack in the boat.  He doesn't see much at first but then sees land and what he claims to be "The Devil".   And says that the Island is guarded by the devil.   Of course, all of us recognize this "DEVIL" as the Egyptian God of fertility and childbirth known as Tawaret.  And also known to us LOSTIES as "The 4 toed statue!"  The ship is headed right towards the statue!  It would appear that the Black Rock caught some really large waves because we see the ship going high up and straight into the statue.  


  • So this answers one of our questions we have had way back since the season 2 finale.  How did the statue get destroyed?  While I had previously speculated that perhaps it was the Black Rock "crew" destroying the statue in fulfillment of The Man in Black's "The Come, They Fight, They Corrupt, They Destroy" prophecy, it turns out that the Black Rock Crew DID destroy the statue but totally accidentally!  
  • This also answers how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the Island, as the next shot we see is of this very thing.  Although, I never thought that the Black Rock was in a location similar to the Statue.  Jack, Rousseau and crew travelled to the Black Rock at the end of season 1 on foot while Sayid, Sun and Jin didn't pass by the statue until they headed north via boat to get to the Others' fake camp.   But, whatever, maybe the wave was just that huge that it traveled for miles after a direct collision with the statue!  In other words, this is the answer we're getting, we may as well accept it!  Many people had speculated that a tsunami had caused the Black Rock to get there, and well it does seem to have been something like that. 
  • What confuses me about the whole encounter tough is the night time and stormy aspect of the scene.   Remember the scene between the Man in Black and Jacob that started off the season 5 finale?  A ship that looks very much like the Black Rock was travelling to the Island in broad daylight and perfect weather.  We learned that Jacob "brought them" here.  We also learn in this episode that Jacob brought many many people to the Island before the Black Rock.  So, there are 2 ways to look at this.  1.) The ship was not the Black Rock in the season 5 finale.  But then where is any evidence of that ship having been at the Island?   2.) The ship was the black rock and the Island did one of its "day turning into night" events and the heavens started to pour.  We also saw the Ajira Plane flying in the middle of the night and then in broad daylight the next second.  Are these events similar?    Here is the picture of the ship from season 5.   Any speculations out there? 





Island - What Happened to the Black Rock Crew
So we may have thought that the Black Rock crew had explored this Island for awhile before perishing, but that does not turn out to be the case.  Of course, we always knew that there were slaves that died while they were still chained in.  We found out very quickly what happened to everyone on the ship. 
  • Magnus Hanso, whom we never met, perished in the crash.
  • All but 5 officers also died.  Several of the slaves were still alive including Richard and the Spaniard who things fertility statues are devils.  They kept screaming that they were alive and finally Whitfield came down with his sword.
  • He started killing the slaves one at a time claiming that if he didn't the slaves would eventually turn on them and kill them.  
  • So ever slave is killed and just as Whitfield is about to take out Richard, we hear a familiar sound. I love it when we actually get to root for Smokey! (ripping off Montand's arm, going after the freighter crew, I'd even go as far as watching him take out Bram and crew just because it was really cool!)   Anyway, Smokey takes care of the 5 officers including a cool shot of dragging Whitfield through the ceiling.  Good times! 
 
  • Then it's time to scope out Richard.  Similar to what he did to Eko, Kate and Juliet we see flashes of light and smokey capturing memories from Richard's past.  Now of course Locke also claimed to have seen a bright white light and Eko claimed that this is not what he saw so take from this what you will! 

  • And for a long period of time we see Richard trying to break loose from his chains.  He eventually gets a nail loose from the boards and tries to pry open the chains with that.  We get a shot of a boar  feasting on some of the dead bodies (I'll spare you from the visual).  Richard tries to defend himself from the boar with the nail and drops it in the process out of his reach.   Poor guy! 
  • Then, after a period of time, Ricardo then sees Isabella who is so happy to see him!  She claims that they are both dead and that they're in hell.   She is there to save him before "he" come back.  She calls him the devil. She looked into his eyes and all she saw was evil.  We then "HEAR" the smoke sounds from outside of the Black Rock (confusing, right?).  Richard tells Isabella to go without him.  She refuses at first but then runs.  We don't see smokey though as it sounds like he rips her apart. 


  • So what is going on here right?  Okay, so first, I am thinking that Smokey captured Richard's memories and then took the form of Isabella to sway Richard.  Sounds right, right?   One issue with that.  Every form Smokey has taken previously has been of dead bodies on the Island.  Are we saying that we went through all of this trouble to bring John Locke's body back to the Island and Smokey never needed him to be here?   Yemi, Alex, possibly Christian Shephard were all bodies on the Island.  (although, we still don't know where Christian's body is in either the Island or Sideways timeline)    Issue #2: How did we hear smokey from far away but still have this incarnation of Isabella in the Black Rock at the same time?  Is that just a gift of Smokey's that we didn't know existed?  Or was this image if Isabella not the Man in Black/Smokey's doing at all?   Jacob later says that he does not like to get involved but could he have somehow caused this vision to Richard?   We know Kate has seen a horse from her past on the Island before.  How did that happen?   Am I looking too much into this?  Or am I rightfully confused?  I will have to go with the opinion that somehow this image is created by Smokey in his attempt to seduce Richard into killing Jacob.  But I still don't know how it's possible based on prior examples of Smokey incarnations. 
Man in Black's Seduction of Richard to the Dark Side
  • More time passes and Richard is then awoken by the touch of a hand on his shoulder.  A very blatant touch right?  We first think it is Jacob, but then it turns out to be none other than the Man in Black (Titus Welliver version)!  


  • MIB gives Ricardo water and claims to be a friend.  When Ricardo asks if he's in hell, MIB confirms it.  He also says he was on the Island long before the Black Rock.  Richard asked about his wife, how the black smoke came and she ran.  MIB says that this probably means that "HE" has her.  He refers to HIM as the devil.   He offers his help to Richard as he too "wants to be free."    Looks like Smokey's desire to leave the Island goes as far back as his desire to kill Jacob.  Definitely makes sense.  MIB requests that Richard promise he will help him before he frees him from the chains.  MIB wants Richard to do anything he asks.  Richard obliges. 
  • Richard is finally freed from the chains.  Richard is thankful and the Man in Black says something that isn't the first time we hear it "It's good to see you out of those chains."  So not only was Flocke's reference to this a reference to Richard's time on the black rock, it was the exact line that triggered Richard's memory to who Flocke actually was.  It also now helps us piece together Flocke and Richard's scenes in the Locke-centric episode "The Substitute" where Flocke tells Richard he wants what he always wanted.  For Richard to join him.
  • So MIB tells Ricardo that he will need his strength if they want to escape.  He says there is only one way to escape from hell.  He is naturally referring to killing Jacob when he says that Ricardo will have to kill the devil.  Because Jacob's death is the MIB's only ticket off of the Island. 
  • Next we see Richard feasting on a boar.  MIB gives Ricardo directions to where he will find the Devil.  Head due West until you get to the ocean and then he'll see the statue.   MIB explains that the ship smashed through the statue its way inland and smashed it into pieces.
  • We then see a scene that is hauntingly familiar to the Dogen/Sayid scene in which Dogen gives Sayid a "special" dagger and gives him explicit instructions.  MIB's instructions to Richard are the same.  He only has one chance, shove this into the devil's chest, do not hesitate and do not let him say a word.  If he speaks, it will already be too late.  He can be very persuasive.  Richard laughs asking how he could kill the devil if he's black smoke.  MIB is very upfront with Richard and says HE is the Black Smoke.  Wow, 6 seasons we have to wait for Smokey to reveal himself to the LOSTIES, and he reveals himself to Richard within days of his arrival to the Island.  Gotta love the last season folks! 
  • Richard then is confused as he knew Isabella was running from the smoke.  MIB says that Isabella was running from The Devil and that he tried to stop him but he couldn't.  MIB is again trying to identify with the person he is having a 1 on 1 conversation with.  He tells Richard that he is not the only one who has lost something.  The Devil (Jacob) betrayed him and took his body and humanity.
  • Interesting - He took his body?  I wonder how literal MIB is being here?  Did Jacob somehow take MIB's body and use it as his own or did he just bestow this Smoke Role on him and in doing so, has stripped him from his physical body.   Could this imply that one of those bodies in the cave IS in fact the Man in Black?  (even if Jack assessed the bodies to be dead only for 40-50 years?)   I'm grasping at straws right now, but I found the comment very sincere and intriguing.  
  • The rest of MIB's seduction of Richard is basically trying to get him to kill Jacob "The Devil has your wife and you're going to have to kill him to get her back"  Of course, the Man in Black has promised Sayid similar things.  Telling him he could have whatever he wanted in exchange for his help.  Is he lying to get his way?  Based on the final scene between Jacob and MIB in this episode, it would certainly seem so. 
  • Ricardo refuses at first saying that murder is wrong and that is why he is in hell in the first place.  MIB states that they can argue all day about what is right and wrong but he asks if he ever wants to see his wife again.  Ricardo acknowledges that he does.  MIB gets up and walks away leaving Richard to his task. 
  • By the way, this episode never does explain why Richard went all long hair and scraggly in the 70's for his first encounter with Ben.  In 1954 we see him as clean-cut as he does in 1977 and from 2004-2007.  So why the change for that particular moment?  I don't know if we'll ever get the answer, but we do see that Richard used to have long hair and a beard in his Spaniard days.  So, maybe we can just go with that!  Sorry for the sidebar, just wanted to throw that out there! 



Richard meets Jacob

We see Richard arrive at Jacob's beach with the statue in shambles.  We could sit here and speculate how all of this statue debris on the beach and in the ocean are just gone in 2004-2007, but I'm going to skip right by that.  Some of it probably sank to the bottom of the ocean.  Everything else?  Maybe Jacob has super strength and picked it up and threw it in the ocean too! 

  • Richard arrives to the foot and unsheathes the knife.  The door to the foot is open.  Jacob is outside and takes a shot at Richard right to the face.  And he takes a few more shots.  Richard tries still to attack him but Jacob takes him down and grabs the knife.  Jacob then speaks asking Richard why he is here and who gave him the dagger. 


  • Richard asks where is wife is.  Jacob claims to not know his wife and asked if she came on the ship.  He then asks if Richard met a man in the jungle dressed in black.  Richard explains to Jacob what MIB told him.  He's the devil, if he wants to see his wife again he must kill him.  Jacob looks clearly upset and tells Ricardo that it wasn't his wife that he saw.   Richard says that it was her and that she is dead just like him.  Jacob tries to convince Richard he's not dead.  (note: some will say that Jacob never did acknowledge they're not in hell.  But I would think saying he's not dead would prove this).  Jacob then takes Richard into the ocean and submerges him repeatedly until Richard cries that he wants to live.  Thus, proving that he's not dead.  Interesting tactic! 
  • The next scene we see that Jacob has provided Richard with a blanket to warm up after his underwater adventure.  And Jacob also brings wine for them both to drink and chat. 
  • Richard asks what is inside the foot.  Jacob tells Richard that no one comes in unless he invites them in.   If you recall, Richard said something similar to this in season 5's finale and Flocke told him he was beginning to think Richard was making up these rules as he went along.  Jacob then goes into his whole reasoning for bringing people to the Island. 
  • He said his name is Jacob and he is the one who brought their ship to the Island.  When Richard asks why Jacob picks up the wine bottle and starts to compare the wine to what Richard is referring to as "HELL".  Jacob gives it another name, Malevolence, evil, darkness (I guess we could call it SMOKEY!)  Jacob says this evil is swirling in the bottle unable to get out.  Because if it did it would spread.  Hmmm, we had speculated a couple blog posts ago (I believe it was while discussing in the comments) that perhaps the real objective of this season to prevent Smokey from leaving the Island.  Similar to Godzilla or King Kong, what would happen if this monster was unleashed upon the world?  At first, I was thinking MIB was trying to leave the Island and return to human form.  But is that even possible?  What if he left the Island and was STILL Smokey?  Is that where this show is heading?  From Jacob's discussion with Ricardo, it sure seems that way.   What does he mean by the EVIL "spreading?"  Would Smokey terrorize the world or would he turn the whole world into Zombie followers like Sayid?   Is this REALLY where the show is headed?   I'll reserve my judgement until we know more, but the idea of Jack and crew's purpose of being on the Island as being called to be protectors of the Island and keep the world safe is not a bad idea.  But is guarding Smokey really all that protecting the Island is about?   I guess we'll keep watching to find out. 

  • Jacob puts a cork into the bottle and refers to the cork as the Island.  It's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs.  He then goes on explaining to Richard that the Man in Black sent him on the murder mission because he believes it is in every man is corruptible because it is in their very nature to sin.  (Recall the MIB's speech "They Come, They Fight, They Corrupt, They Destroy"  Recall Jacob's "You're wrong, it only ends once.  Everything before that, is progress")  Jacob says that he brings all of these people to the Island to prove him wrong.  He says that when the people get here, their past does not matter.  This makes me recall Jack telling Kate in season 1 that everyone gets a clean slate on this Island.  This makes me think back to all of the times the OTHERS would refer to people as "Not a Good person, that's why they weren't on the list."  And of course, does a candidate have to be without sin?  We saw Locke, Sayid and Sawyer all kill people on the Island.  Jack mercy killed the Marshal.  Sun shot one of the Others.   Granted, some of them were threatened and had to shoot.  But it's worth speculating if this matters.  

  • Jacob tells Richard that there were many people brought to the Island before him and that they're all dead.  Richard asks why Jacob didn't help any of them.   Jacob says he wanted them to help themselves and to know the difference between right and wrong without him having to tell them.  It would be meaningless if he had to force them to do anything.  Richard retorts that if Jacob doesn't step in then the MIB would. 
  • Jacob thinks about this for a second and then offers Richard the job of being his advisor.  Maybe Richard could step in for him.  He could be Jacob's representative to people he brings to the Island.  Richard wants something in return.  First he asks for his wife back.  Jacob states that he cannot do this. (Dead is Dead?)  2nd he asks to be absolved of his sins so he doesn't go to hell.  Jacob states that he cannot do this either (Does this prove he isn't a god?)  3rd, Ricardo then says he never wants to die, he wants to live forever.  Jacob touches Richard's shoulder and says "Now, that I can do!"

  • So, Jacob cannot bring people back from the dead but he can touch them and make them immortal?  What does this say about the scene when Locke is thrown out the window by his father and appears to be dead.  Jacob touches him and he breathes again.  Was he not dead and Jacob just partially healed him from the waste up?  I guess we are just going to have to accept the fact that Jacob has these crazy powers.  He is, after all, ageless himself.  People may not like the answer, but that seems to be all we are getting.  Unless, we get a Jacob origin story.  Which, I kinda would like to see! 
Richard and MIB
  • Richard returns to MIB.   The Man in Black already knows that he let Jacob talk to him.  (again, very reminiscent of Dogen and Sayid after the encounter)  Why do these scenes mirror each other?  I can't even begin to speculate right now!  
  • Man in Black is not even upset.  He knows that Jacob can be very convincing.  Richard then says that Jacob asked him to give MIB a white stone.  Nice, we're brought back to the inside joke!   And of course, in this episode we saw a "Black Rock" and a White Rock.  (ZING!)
  • MIB tells Richard that if he ever changes his mind and he means "EVER" his offer still stands.  And then he gives Richard his wife's gold cross.  MIB says that he must have dropped it on the ship.  Maybe this is how he was able to take the form of Isabella?  Because he had something of hers?  Kind of makes me think of Christian Shephard's shoes but that still doesn't help explain why they needed Locke's body on the Island if he's taking the forms of people that aren't on the island.  
  • MIB disappears and then Richard buries the necklace by a bench and says goodbye to his wife.  I am confused to why he would rather live an eternity without his wife than die to be with her.  I guess because he thinks he will go to hell.  
Present Day
  • We find Richard arriving to the same location where he buried the necklace and watch him dig it back up in 2007.  He then screams over and over for the Man in Black saying that he has changed his mind about his offer.  
  • But all that shows up is Hurley!  Hurley asks about the offer.  Richard is confused to why Hurley is there and starts flipping out saying he doesn't know anything.  Hurley said that Richard's wife sent him.  (Totally called that folks! I know I know...not hard to figure out!)   Isabella wants to know why Richard buried the cross.   

  • Richard is confused and wants to know how Hugo knows about that.  He says she just told him and saw Richard dig it up.  She is standing right next to him.  Woa...   Isabella tells Hurley that Richard does not believe him.  Hurley tells her sometimes it takes people awhile.  Hurley begins to translate and Richard begins to believe. You're English is Awesome dude!  Richard asks if she is really there.   She tells him to close his eyes and Hurley will tell her what she says "It wasn't your fault that I died. It was my time.  You have suffered enough, Ricardo."  Richard misses her and would do anything to be with her again.   Isabella says they already are together and then she kisses him and disappears.  
  • So now even GHOSTS of people that were never on the Island are appearing too?  I'm so confused.  But does this prove that we could have a Smokey incarnation and a GHOST of Christian Shephard on the Island at the same time?  Hmmmm  Could we also speculate that Isabella is referring to a Sideways timeline where she and Richard "are together" with her comment?  Or the fact that she is on the Island as a ghost while he is there alive as well?   All interesting thoughts and confusing thoughts!
    (Update: I stand corrected!  Ben's dead Mother appeared as a Ghost on the island before and she never had been on the Island.  I'm not sure the implications of this but thanks to anonymous commenter for the clarification!)
  • In either case it was a very touching scene.  Richard puts the chain around his neck and thanks Hurley. But Hurley is nervous to make one more comment. 
  • She said there is one more thing that Richard has to do.  She said that he needs to stop the Man in Black from leaving the Island because if he doesn't "We all go to hell."  And then we get a shot of Flocke looking on from the distance.  YIKES!  We'll have to speculate about this in the comments!  I'm running late! 

Back in 1867



We all would have been happy if the episode ended there, but we got one more exciting scene between the Man in Black and Jacob that pretty much continues their beach discussion AFTER they both talked to Richard.

  • We see Man in Black sitting and overlooking the Island holding the white stone.  Jacob comes to him all happy acknowledging he got the present.  MIB says he doesn't have to gloat. 

  • Jacob is upset that MIB tried to kill him and is wondering why he did it.  Hmmm didn't Jacob already know that MIB wanted to kill him?  He said he did in the season 5 finale.  Maybe the Black Rock was BEFORE that other ship?  Or was it just so we could hear MIB plead here a little more for Jacob to let him leave? 
  • Jacob said as long as he is alive MIB is not going anywhere.  And he said even if MIB kills him somebody else will take his place.  And them MIB says the one thing that defines what side he is truly on (his own).  "Then I will kill them too!"  
  • Jacob then gives MIB the bottle of wine and tells him it is to pass the time. "I'll see you around"
  • MIB: "Sooner than you think" he then breaks the bottle symbolizing his escape from the Island.








      BOOM LOST!!! 

I said it before and I'll say it again.  A great episode from start to finish!  It gave us a great Richard backstory while tying the events together that apply to the current story.  Bravo to Damon Lindelof, Calrton Cuse and the entire LOST team for their vision and bringing it to fruition in this episode.  I can't wait to watch it again!  There will still be complaints to items that were left out.  But we definitely are getting a clearer picture of where this story is going and we're getting answers along the way.  Bring on next week!  But in the meantime, let's get to the discussion!  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings as always and I'll see you next week!  NAMASTE! 


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360 comments:

1 – 200 of 360   Newer›   Newest»
Holly said...

AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME...
Maybe MIB wanted Locke's body because that was a person all the Losties knew and most of them trusted Locke. If he took on some other body on the Island then he would not be so convincing.

So much to ponder over, can't wait to watch again...best episode EVER.

Anonymous said...

Namaste Losties,
I think that Jacob and the Man in Black are jinn. I thought of jinn when Jacob was swirling the wine flask and stuffed a cork in the bottle’s neck.
A jini (genie) is a supernatural creature which occupies a parallel world to that of mankind and together with humans and angels makes up the three sentient creations of God. Possessing free will, a jini can be either good (Jacob) or evil (Man in Black).
Jinn is the plural for jini which is derived from the Arabic root Janaa and means to hide or be hidden. Other words derived from this root are Majnoon, jonnon, and janeen. Majnoon is to call someone whose intellect is hidden “crazy” (Danielle Rousseau and her French Team, Claire, Sayid), jonnon means craziness (The Sickness), and janeen means a baby inside a mother's womb, hence hidden (perhaps this is why the babies conceived/born on the Island are thought to be special).
In other cultures, as in the Mythology Guanche (Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain-This is where Richard Alpert lived with his wife, Isabella!), also believed in beings that are genies.
Similar to humans, jinn have free will allowing them to do as they choose (such as follow any religion). They are usually invisible to humans and humans do not appear clear to them (this is why the Smoke Monster needs to scan certain people). However, jinn often harass and even possess humans (French Team: Lacombe, Brennan, Robert; Sayid, Claire), for various reasons, such as romantic infatuation, revenge, or due to a deal made with a practitioner of black magic. Jinn have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds (Smoke Monster roaming the Island and Jacob visiting various people around the world) and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities (The Island). Like humans, jinn will also be judged on the Day of Judgment and will be sent to Heaven or Hell according to their deeds.
Every person is assigned a special "jini" to them, also called a qareen, the jini that whisper into your soul and tell you to give in to your evil desires (the mysterious whispers on the Island).
Jinn are divided into three classes: those who have wings and fly in the air (Hurley Bird), those who resemble snakes (Smoke Monster) and dogs (Vincent), and those who travel about ceaselessly. When the jinn came to hear a recitation of the Quran, they were described as creatures of different forms: some resembling vultures and snakes, others as tall men in white garb (Jacob). They may even appear as dragons or a number of other animals (Kate’s horse). In addition to their animal forms, the jinn occasionally assume human form to mislead and destroy their human victims (Man in Black as Yemi, Alex). The Jinn were generally ignorant, untruthful, oppressive and treacherous (Man in Black).
A clue may be in Jin Kwon’s name. Jin is a popular Korean male name that means gold, truth, treasure, pearl. The writers may have named him Jin to provide a clue to the MIB’s and Jacob’s origin.
LOST Fan

Weasel said...

WOW!!!

As far a Ilana going to the temple, I think Jacob told her to "take them" to the temple. That is why she did not go there first. She had to collect some LOSTIES first

Anonymous said...

I have comments on two questions you posed

1. “Kind of makes me think of Christian Shephard's shoes but that still doesn't help explain why they needed Locke's body on the Island if he's taking the forms of people that aren't on the island.”

My guess: Smokey needs Locke’s body to live in; he was only appearing as Christian’s ghost, hence the difference. Earlier this season (I can’t remember when) one of the characters (Ilana?) said that Smokey was stuck in Locke’s body now. That seems reminiscent of this comment.

“Did Jacob somehow take MIB's body and use it as his own or did he just bestow this Smoke Role on him and in doing so, has stripped him from his physical body. Could this imply that one of those bodies in the cave IS in fact the Man in Black? (even if Jack assessed the bodies to be dead only for 40-50 years?)”

Wild guess, if Smokey can touch someone’s possession he can appear as a ghost of that person, possessing Locke’s body is a substantively different. Smokey needs and actual body to reside in and Locke’s body is serving that purpose. He can probably only be killed in his ‘Flocke’ body as well.

“So now even GHOSTS of people that were never on the Island are appearing too? I'm so confused. But does this prove that we could have a Smokey incarnation and a GHOST of Christian Shephard on the Island at the same time?”

2. I would point out that Hurley was present for the ghost of Isabella. My guess, real ghosts (as opposed to Smokey ghosts) can only appear in the presence of gifted people (e.g. Hurley).

Holly said...

2. I would point out that Hurley was present for the ghost of Isabella. My guess, real ghosts (as opposed to Smokey ghosts) can only appear in the presence of gifted people (e.g. Hurley).

That is probably why Sawyer could see that kid when he & Flocke were together...Sawyer too is Gifted (physically too, yes I'm a girl who loves my shirtless Sawyer ;-)
Just sayin'

Anonymous said...

Isabella is not the first 'ghost' to appear who's body was not on the island. Ben's mother most certainly died elsewhere, but appeared to him when he was a child.

plumbarius said...

That's how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the island??

That's how the statue was destroyed??

WEAK, WEAK, WEAK!!

On a positive note, I enjoyed the suffering and agony that was portrayed by Richard. He really was a tortured soul.

So the ship that was shown in last years episode where MIB and Jacob had their discussion was not the Black Rock?? The statue was already destroyed, correct?

Hmmm...how important is Hurley becoming as we move towards the conclusion :-)

Jenny said...

Don't have a lot of time to comment, but I'm thinking that MIB, Jacob, and a few others are incarnations of the Egyptian gods. Jacob=Sobek(Sobek-Ra), MIB is maybe Apep?

The statue looks like Sobek. Here's a little Wiki info:
"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part."

Or, maybe all of the Egyptian stuff is just another incarnation, or at that time period, the Egyptian mythology or god like characters were the "replacements" which eventually were replaced by other people like Jacob, etc.

Jenny said...

Who we really need is Joseph Campbell. He would have been able to figure this whole thing out in 10 seconds.

HollyP said...

Yes, Smokey needs a body.

It occurred to me last night that the body is the loophole... and the reason while pregnant women miscarry on the island. Could it be that Smokey was trying to enter the fetus and possess teh body?

MJ said...

I haven't read the recap yet - work is b***h today, but have a question.

Watched the enhanced ReCon last night and something popped up that has me scratching my head. As Locke and Sawyer were talking by the outrigger as Sawyer was about to go to Hydra it popped up "In The Incident Locke told Richard he would have to 'deal with' the Ajira passengers. Whaaat? When did THAT happen ?

Mike V. said...

Holly - I agree that's WHY he took on Locke's body. But I was just wondering if bringing the body back to the island was significant in him taking this form. Because if it was...then what is up with Isabella showing up after Smokey scans Richard? Maybe the body being on the plane was simply to "recreate the events of flight 815" as much as possible as Eloise had said. I dunno.

And I'd probably put this ep in my top 5...but I still have to reserve The Constant and Through the Looking Glass as my favorites! LOL

LOST FAN - Not sure I can follow you on Jacob and MIB being Jin....unless you mean Genies like you spell out later. And that's a good point since they both seem to be granting wishes. Ahh, I'm reading further and see you explain what Jinn is lol Very interesting speculation which I'll let speak for itself. It's a good application of the stuff happening on LOST to that mythology. Although, I would argue that Vincent is just a dog! :-) lol

Weasel - thanks for the clarification! That makes sense. Again, I get a little punchy in the late hours of the night and I start rambling on about ridiculous things! lol

Mike V. said...

Wow, already falling behind on the comments, and I already have additional ideas that I didn't get to in the blog! lol But maybe they'll come out as I go through the comments!

Anonymous with the comments on my questions:

1.) Smokey isn't living "IN" Locke's body. Remember, they buried Locke's body. There is no difference if he appeared as Locke, Isabella, Christian, Alex, Yemi...they all were human form and could touch things. But it was the smoke taking that form. Ilana said Smokey was stuck in the "FORM" of Locke. Not IN his body. I still think Christian has appeared as a Ghost too and not just as Smokey.

2.) I am of the same opinion that GHOSTS and Smokey Incarnations are DIFFERENT. I never argued that. I was arguing there that Isabella has never been to the Island. But her Ghost is still appearing on the Island. This is the first time we have seen a Ghost of someone who didn't die on the island or whose body (christian) was not brought to the Island. (of course...I've been corrected further down with Ben's mother!)

Holly - We don't necessarily know that that kid was dead or who that kid was. He could be dead though and a ghost that Sawyer can see (and Richard could not...just like he couldn't see Isabella) We also know that Locke saw WALT, who is not dead, in season 3. We still need to know what that is about as well.

Anonymous - Very good point on Ben's Mother. I forgot about her. But at least you understood my point! lol We weren't sure if that was a smokey incarnation at the time either. But Smokey had never scanned Ben...maybe it actually was a ghost. Of course, then why could Ben see her? Because he was a candidate at one time?

Sorry you didn't like those explanations Plumb! I think sometimes we have to understand that even with LOST's amazing look and fee for a network TV show...it still has only so much time and money to put into the effects! lol Not sure if that was your complaint or just the whole concept of the black rock destroying the statue and then keep traveling onward into the middle of the jungle lol I enjoyed Nestor's portrayal of Richard in this ep too. Fantastic! The statue was not destroted in the scene with MIB and Jacob....that's the first time we saw the full statue from that angle. So I don't know if it was the Black Rock or not! I'm confused by the night and day differences. Agree, Hurley seems to becoming very important!

Jenny - We have already confirmed that the statue is Tawaret the Egyptian God of Fertility and Childbirth. As for Jacob and MIB being gods themselves...I guess it's still not out of the question, but I was more convinced by this episode that they weren't. Funny on Joseph Campbell! lol

Mike V. said...

Holly interesting on Smokey entering the fetus to prevent pregnancies! But Like I said...we have never seen Smokey inhabit a body...only take the form of one!

MJ, I do remember Flocke saying something like that. I'll have to check the recap to see if it can jog my memory! lol

Anonymous said...

"Smokey needs and actual body to reside in and Locke’s body is serving that purpose."

But MIB isn't living in Locke's body.....we saw Locke's body being buried. Using his form, maybe, but his body is buried.

I am probably wrong, but I always thought that the of Locke's body being brought back to the island was to recreate the orignial flight as much as possible. In my mind I left it at that...maybe I over simplified it by not looking for a hidden agenda?

Mike V. said...

MJ - here are my comments from "THE INCIDENT" I left in the middle comment because it deals with Richard not aging as well lol

"Locke and Richard have an interesting discussion. Richard is curious to how Locke is alive if Ben strangled Locke. He said he has never seen anything like this. Locke says he has never seen anyone NOT age before. Richard says that he is that way BECAUSE OF JACOB which is why he thinks Locke is that way.

So is that enough explanation folks? We clearly see that Jacob does not age and that he has some supernatural healing powers. Would this be enough to consider that Richard is ageless because of Jacob? Do we still wonder HOW this works? Of course we do! And for that we need to find out exactly WHO Jacob is. And I'm guessing that will be a tale told in Season 6. This episode was just a taste of it. But, if I were to connect the dots with last week's episode and Richard working on the Black Rock model and now we see Jacob was at the island PRIOR to the Black Rock's arrival, well I would like to declare with 51% certainty that Richard was a member of the Black Rock and NOT from ancient Egyptian times! Stay tuned for season 6!

Locke says he agrees completely that is why he is out of the coffin, so that he can thank him. And then once they're done with him they need to "deal with" the rest of the Ajira passengers. Ahhh it's all coming together. This supposed Locke is at odds with any supporters of Jacob, which makes sense since he wants to kill him. I know I know, I'm getting ahead of myself!
"

hmmm I guess this might explain that Smokey "DID" kill the rest of the Ajira passengers???

Mike V. said...

ORRRRRR he was speaking of Ilana and Crew, which is probably how I originally interpreted it. As we know, he did "DEAL" with them lol

Weasel said...

@Anonymous: you said "2. I would point out that Hurley was present for the ghost of Isabella. My guess, real ghosts (as opposed to Smokey ghosts) can only appear in the presence of gifted people (e.g. Hurley)."

But Ricardus also saw her back in 1867... How is it that he cannot see her now, if that is the case. Unless the 1867 "ghost" was MIB, and the 2007 ghost was really her ghost/spirit

@Plumbarius: No, the statue was not destroyed yet when we saw them having the conversation on the beach in last year's finale

Mike V. said...

@Weasel -"But Ricardus also saw her back in 1867... How is it that he cannot see her now, if that is the case. Unless the 1867 "ghost" was MIB, and the 2007 ghost was really her ghost/spirit" I AGREE!

Justin said...

As far as other ghosts on the island, let's not forget about Libby's husband Dave who appeared and tried to get Hurly to commit suicide...

Mike V. said...

Justin, while I share your theory that Dave and Libby's ex "DAVID" could be the same person and think it has a good chance of being true. But it has never been confirmed by the show yet. It makes more sense now that we know Hurley can see Ghosts. But, I think until the show points it out to us, we may have to still speculate that Hurley was just seeing things. But if we're right...then yes...there's another example! lol

davidsalako said...

I am sticking with Hugo Reyes and Frank Lapidus as two sure bets in the end game of this roller coaster ride called LOST!
The other LOSTIES, not so sure. After the "submarine" comment by Sawyer last week I think he and Kate are probably not going to survive until the end of the show.
"Ab Aeterno" was a great episode, good job by Nestor Carbonelli and nice flashback. The priest refusing to give absolution because of lack of enough time for penance is erroneous Catholic doctrine but this is not the first time this has happened on LOST. They (the writers) also erroneously referred to Locke's crazy mother's assertion of Locke being conceived without a father as the "Immaculate Conception". The IC refers to the Virgin Mary's natural conception by two parents BUT without the condition of Original Sin in order to prepare her for her immense role as the mother of Christ. It does not refer to the supernatural conception of Christ. Perhaps the questionable priest was so harsh because he had a sideline of helping to ferry off convicts to the "New World" hence Ricardo gets to serve his penance that way and the priest gets a fee from Magnus Hanso?
The tsunami wav causing the "Black Rock" to cash into the Tawaret statue and end up so far inland seems weak but that's what we are getting so moving right along. I noticed that the placing of the debris of the statue looked more like the brief underwater island shot than the no debris shots we see in original timeline. Probably nothing.
Night turning into day or day turning into night - maybe the island causes this to happen somehow as in the Ajira flight. Perhaps it is some allusion to the Gospel accounts of Christ being on the cross and day turning into night? Who knows? I kind of accept a lot of stuff now.
I really wanted Jack to come face to face with a resurrected John Locke, it would have been a great acting challenge for Matthew Fox, considering how John's apparent suicide really affected him back in Los Angeles.
I don't know if there is some memory loss that goes on on the island but Jacob asking why MIB would try to kill him seems strange. Just as FLocke not remembering where Jacob was (at the Tawaret statue) after Jacob specifically said "you know where to find me" in the season 5 finale seemed strange to. Jacob's kick ass fighting skills were cool by the way, reminded me of the warrior-like "Gandalf the White" from "Lord of the Rings".
I am confused by Smokey's ability to be in two places at once - perhaps this is part of the bilocation abilities that the late Bea Klugh suspected that Walt had? How on earth did this manifestation of evil get taken to the island and trapped there in the first place? He seems to be able to walk about in corporal form quite easily as Titus Welliver. At what point did he stop doing that? Where did he and Jacob get these awesome abilities? Why did Jacob take MIBs original body?

Holly said...

Let's not forget about Miles' gift of hearing dead people. Hurley can see only ones that appear to him but Miles can cue on ANY dead person, right? There has got to be more to Miles' story especially since he was born on the island.

I wonder if Miles' will be able to hear the "Adam/Eve" skeletons at some poing and that will be a huge reveal I think.

Weasel said...

As far as the cork keeping in the "darkness". I don't think that Jacob is talking about just smokey. I think he is talking about EVIL in general, and if Jacob dies and MIB leaves the island, then there is nothing protecting the island from being destroyed by (??) and letting the "darkness" into the world.

Could the darkness be a black hole of sorts? Dharma accidentally drilled into it in the Incident and had to cover it up. But instead of fully covering it, they were "tapping it" for their experiments or for the energy (we do not see any power generating stations on the island, but there was power in the hatch); but because of that, every 108 minutes they had to release some of the energy for some reason?

I know I am just rambling here...

Nicole said...

Do I remember correctly that Jacob told Ilana she had to protect the *last* 6 candidates? So, seems to me all of the candidates (how many were on the lighthouse wheel - 108?) were named (perhaps at the beginning of time) and things are desperate now because they are all dead except a remaining precious few. Well, also more desperate now that Jacob is dead and the island is unprotected without his replacement in place.

Mike V. said...

David,

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the #12 being introduced again with Ben meeting Richard when he was 12! lol
Are you saying that Hugo or Frank is the CHOSEN one? Could be I guess! Or do you just mean to survive?
I think it's too soon to tell if Sawyer and Kate are actually going to go through with this Submarine plan lol And who is going to be where 8 episodes from now! I still have a strong feeling that Jack is going to die at the end of the show....I would love to see his eye closing as the last shot of LOST. But I would hate for Jack to die at the same time! lol We'll see how it goes!

Very true on the Immaculate Conception...but I think it got the point across to where they were going with it. She turned out to be lying anyway and may have not been the brightest individual! lol but for a PRIEST to not absolve someone confessing? That is just bizarre. He seemed to be a bit of a corrupt priest...as you mention, he takes the fee from Hanso. Yep...I too went to the Ajira excuse with the night turning to day and vice versa... I'm with you...we just have to accept some things...maybe we'll get clarification down the road.

I think Jack will come in contact with Flocke still....i'll be that is the "last recruit" episode that is down the road. but like you...i wanted it to happen BEFORE he knew! oh well!

Agree on Jacob asking MIB why he wants to kill him. And now that I think about it...there is no way that it could have been before that season 5 scene because the STATUE was destroyed by the black rock! and the statue was intact in the season 5 scene! ugh lol

All good questions at the end of your post. I want origin stories on Jacob and MIB! lol

Mike V. said...

Holly - Miles can "FEEL" their last thoughts or something like that. But yeah, that's a good point about the Adam and Eve skeletons. He definitely could give us more info there! I might enjoy it more by seeing it happen though lol

Weasel - Yeah...i was listening to Jay and Jack on the way to work...and apparently there is speculation that perhaps if the "cork" is removed...this is what caused the Island to sink in the sideways world?! It's an idea. I know that's not exactly what you said but it reminded me of it lol You could be right that it's just not Smokey....but it sure seemed like that by what Isabella told Hurley (you must stop the man in black)...and what Jacob said to MIB (as long as I'm alive you're not going anywhere) But that is all interesting speculation on the Incident too. So then what did Desmond blowing the hatch do besides turning the sky purple? lol

Nicole - Jacob said the "last" 6, you're right. It's a good question to when these candidates were named! And the episode was titled "since the beginning of time" lol you could be onto somethign!

Holly said...

"last 6"...then who is #108 Wallace from the lighthouse wheel? I haven't seen that come up in the comments lately. Any thoughts?

Anonymous said...

does it bother anyone else that the black rock left from the cannary islands (near europe) heading to america(i assume) and ended up near guam..either they were taking the long way or jacob is that powerful...very confusing to me

Mike V. said...

Holly - whoever Wallace is, his name was crossed off. And Darlton did confirm that Widmore was the one that Jacob wanted to come to the Island...so Wallace very well could have been Widmore! (or I guess it could be whoever is locked up in the sub lol Desmond? and perhaps Dez was Widmore's ticket back!)

Remember anonymous...we found out in season 4 and 5...the Island moves through time AND space....it was the same thing with the nigerian plane arriving on the island....they even showed us this happen when they were time traveling in season 5. The plane left the coast of africa and ended up on the island. And in the "316" episode Eloise talks about how the Island is always moving and the Lamp Post station figures out WHEN and WHERE the island will be at any given point in time.

cdstedman said...

It’s interesting how MIB manipulated Jacob without him realizing it. If the whole point is Jacob to keep MIB on the island so he won’t spread his evil everywhere, why does Jacob bring people to the island? Pride. Jacob might not be completely good but it looks like MIB is the bad guy. If Jacob just sat around and kept MIB in check, everything would be good, no need for candidates because the rules are they can’t kill each other. But MIB conned Jacob into this side bet where he thinks everyone is inherently evil anyway so what’s the point of keeping on the island. Causing Jacobs pride to prove him wrong by bringing people to the island and thus giving MIB the opportunity to use them to kill Jacob and be released from the island. Pretty sneaky Devil.

Mike V. said...

Yeah, Stedman, I've been meaning to bring that up. Jacob is bringing all of these people that are dying just to eventually prove a point to MIB. That does not make him very good at all. But I totally agree, MIB is just evil! lol Good point on MIB manipulating Jacob to get him to bring more people to the Island and eventually kill him off. very interesting. Of course, maybe Jacob gets bored being on the island by himself....as we know MIB has 'grown tired' of his company...as he mentioned to Hurley lol

Deebo said...

Mike, amazing recap as always (love the screen caps!)…Wow what an episode I don’t even know where to begin…MIB might not be evil…I was thinking that maybe Jacob can shape-shift and he was using Richards wife, she was trying to free him and we heard smokie’s sounds…Richards acting was absolutely amazing last night just needed to be said…Jacob admitted that a lot of people have died because he brought them to the island and MIB is very convincing…Did anyone see any dynamite on the ship jw? Mike, good point about Jacob not denying being in Hell…The twist in the flash sideways could be MIB is free and in the sideways world all hell may break loose literally!

Mike V. said...

Thanks Deebo! I thought about that with Jacob maybe somehow conjuring up the image of Isabella...but I don't know what his point would be. I think the main thing we learned in this episode is that Jacob doesn't want to interfere...his whole goal is to let people make the decisions on their own. That's where Richard "ADVISED" him that he needed to do something or MIB would do it for him. I thought that was sincere.

I can't take credit for Jacob not denying the Hell thing lol That was all AUStarWars and an email he sent me. I'm sure he'll be posting eventually! I really don't think they are in Hell! lol

I definitely didn't see the dynamite on the ship, but we know it was there somewhere!

Holly said...

I think the main thing we learned in this episode is that Jacob doesn't want to interfere...his whole goal is to let people make the decisions on their own. That's where Richard "ADVISED" him that he needed to do something or MIB would do it for him. I thought that was sincere.

That was also apparent in The Lighthouse when Jacob told Hurley that Jack needed to figure it out on his own and let him sit alone on the cliff... He can only protect his candidates and not influence their decisions

Mike V. said...

Holly, when I first read your comment I was thinking it sounded so familiar! LOL then i realized you were quoting me! good times

Very good point on Jack and the Lighthouse and Jacob pretty much doing the same thing. I think it is very telling to why we haven't seen Jacob around very much. And why we have seen smokey a lot more often!

Holly said...

LOL Mike V...I was quoting you but didn't know how to italicize it...did you have a Flash Back or Sideways with that?

Thanks for reminding me Wallace was crossed off, I thought it was still there. Wouldn't you like to know who that is/was though?

Phil said...

I'm still not 100% convinced that MIB is totally evil. For example, in this episode, Smokey killed guys who were murdering defenseless guys in chains. And he didn't kill women and children at the temple. And in a previous season he killed Keamey and co-horts who certainly were bad dudes. Plus, in this episode (which was fantatic btw), we also saw a new side of Jacob -- the fighter. A little taste of what Jacob is capable of.

I just don't think it's that black and white -- at least not yet! Just waiting for more twists and turns in the story.

davidsalako said...

@Mike V. - Good call on Ben being 12! I noticed that after I typed up my earlier comment. 12 points to something for sure! 1992, like I have proposed earlier.

Regarding Hurley and Lapidus, I meant surviving to the very end. I am hoping that Lapidus gets a big payoff as far as the destiny of his character goes. Hurley's ever growing confidence is entertaining.

I guess Magnus Hanso shall remain a mystery as far as what he looked liked and all the other crew members of the "Black Rock"? There goes my theory that some ancestors of our Oceanics would be on the "Black Rock".

MIB killed the genocidal Mr. Whitfield so that was a good deed in my view! Jacob's bringing people to the island in a high stakes "prove my point" game seems rather cruel. Just who the heck is this dude and what egos both he and his "old friend" MIB have! lol!

Deebo said...

@Phil- I agree too….I think that Jacob could have shape-shifted and that he can manipulate any dead bodies at anytime…Jacob’s reasoning could be that he is the devil and that he wants some sort of outcome to happen…I also wondered why Richard would think that they are in hell when he left the island on several occasions? I still don’t think we can rule out purgatory as much as I would hate it lol…@Holly good point about Miles, I always wondered if he “felt” Jacob and knew Ben killed him he should know the extent of MIB and Jacobs purpose right?

Anonymous said...

Great episode. One of the best. I beleive Hurley becomes the Richard Alpert of the future. As Jacob is using him in the same way as a messenger. I agree with those who say that the MIB is not all bad. The Jacob ass kicking scene was really out of character for him as we have only seen him as mild mannered even while being killed. Does this mean he has "matured" and evolved or is he not who he has seemed to be? Also not showing who actually killed Isabella leaves this open and for me points towards a not so conclusive right vs. evil

Anonymous said...

correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the black smoke scan Ben when he fell through the floor in the temple...right after that Alex appeared to him and told him to do whatever Locke tells him, thus leading Ben to kill Jacob at Locke's demand...very similar to the chain of events with Richard in the bottom of the Blackrock.

Rukshan said...

WOW! What an epolisode. It was just awesome. Nice to read the recap and comments.

Has anyone here been baptized ? I haven't as I'm a Buddhist, but I understand that it involves being pushed under water and having some wine afterwards. Did Jacob baptize Richard? This show does seem to have a lot to do with religion and beliefs.

MJ said...

Ok - have read the recap but not the comments as of yet.

Feeling we got jipped on the Black Rock thing. Jacob/MIB talking on the beach right by the statue and the ship comes into sight - not a storm to be had. So either they messed up - or that was not the Black Rock. Also - those waves were no where near bad enough to get that boat to the middle of the jingle - and never felt the statue and ship were near eachother on the island.
As for the day to night thing - a storm can have very dark skies - especially at sea. So for me the night/day thing is pretty much the only part that I'd buy.

Agree hearing Smokey while seeing Isabella makes no sense.

Usually I'm happy to take what they are giving - but have to say am a little disappointed here. Do not feel they told us anything - just confurmed suspicions and not too well at that. And continuity seems really bad this ep. Maybe I over-hyped myself for this ep. And since they have told us it's not hell or purgatory and they are not dead I feel like we wasted some time last night for them to have Richardo keep saying it's hell and we're dead.

If MIB is being literal in Jacob taking his body then Titus Welliver is merely a 'meat suit' just as Locke is now.

We also saw ghost Dave from the nut house - he was never on the island either.

So - not overwhelmed by the ep. And that's not like me. But - to be honest this has been a bad day at work so maybe I'm just not feeling it right now

I'm hoping all this hell stuff is not true as promised by Darlton and that it's just Ricardo's primitive view and the only way he can see it.

Don said...

I keep thinking of that episode where Jack hears the smoke detector going off, (smokey right?) and he see's his dad sitting in the lobby where he works. Some female Dr. interrupts him and she writes him a prescription. So if that was Smokey playing Christian, then how trapped is he on this island?

The other thing I keep thiking of is Desmond's vision of Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter to safely get off the island. Should I forget about this or start figuring out ways of how Aaron gets to the island?

As far as Jacob not liking to interfere, does his conversation with Richard change his mind on this? Is it not him that prevented Michael and Jack from killing themselves? Was it not him, as Christian, that basically said when and where Michael could/would die. Or handing Hurley the guitar case for Dogen?

Was Jacob ever going to free Richard from those chains or just let him die there? He admits to bringing them there, so why did he do that if only one survived at the hands of MIB?

Sorry for boucing all around. A great episode followed by great discussion gets the juices flowing!

MJ said...

Mike - appreciate you answering me - but what were you answering ?

In the enhanced version of Recon the pop up states that Locke told Richard that he would have to 'deal with' the ajira passengers. The quoes on deal with were in the pop up - not put there by me.

I have no recollection of Locke telling Richard to deal with the ajira folks. So your cut/paste from your notes speaks to this in what way ?

Deebo said...

@MJ- Flocke said that to Richard in the finale last year…Richard asked him how he was still alive and Flocke in turned asked him why he didn’t age and he said Jacob made me this way…Flocke then said we have to deal with the 316 passengers and Richard said what do you mean deal with them? Flocke just you know what I mean…It was a great scene actually

davidsalako said...

Locke had the short conversation with Richard about dealing with the rest of the Ajira flight folk in the Season 5 episode "Follow the Leader", during their trek to the Tawaret statue remains.

cdstedman said...

Ruhshan – Baptism is symbolic of dieing and being reborn (born again), once you’re pulled from the water you’re a new person and your past sinner life is gone. It does not get you into heaven as said in Mike’s favorite episode fire and water.

MJ said...

So we know Ben never heard Jacob. Now we know that Richard was chosen to be the go-between for Jacob and any arrivals to the island. So does that mean the this whole 'leader' thing is all created by man with their lust for power ? Maybe Jacob never wanted these so called leaders and never spoke to any of them. These people who were brought went all Lord of the Flies and created their own heirarchies that had absolutely nothing to do with Jacob. And Richard just sorta hung in there trying to get them to do the right things.

MJ said...

Thanks DavidSalako and Deebo. Think I am just Debbie Dense today - sorry didn't get ya Mike.
Man - I don't remember that at all - but I knew you guys wouldn't fail me !

Anonymous said...

Loved this episode! Who knew Richard's flashback was a love story? I was glued to the tube, especially during smokey killing the crew members then coming to check out Richard - I think I was holding my breath the whole time! Also liked the "slow" part where he was trying to get out of the chains -- his desperation throughout that entire segment was unbelievable! Loved the boar eating the other slaves - nice touch!

Someone mentioned this, and I thought of it also. I think Richard will somehow be allowed to die so he can finally be with his love, and Hurley will take his place as the "advisor" to those left on the island (or those who arrive over time).

Regarding the whole "ghost" discussion, I think there is something to the fact that MIB had the wife's necklace while she was appearing to Richard. Reminded me of needing hair or something from your subject to put on your voodoo doll when you are inflicting a curse! I did think it odd that Richard buried the necklace instead of keeping the only thing he had left of his wife near him at all times.

I am ok with the resolution of the questions of what happened to the statue and how did the ship get into the jungle. I don't think these are significant issues so I think the writers' somewhat weak attempt at an explanation is OK in this situation.

I had not thought about MIB antagonizing Jacob into bringing more people to the island (to prove him wrong) ultimately to get someone to kill Jacob. Great theory and totally believable! That MIB can be such a snake-in-the-grass!

Good recap once again, and I'm looking forward to reviewing more comments! Lots to talk about! Cajun QT

Rukshan said...

Thanks cdstedman. Guess this means that Richards past sins were washed off by Jacob and given a new start in the island.

Guess MIB I'd meant be an evil entity of some sort and Jacob some how managed to remove his power and have him kept in the island. That bits clear enough. Why does Jacob want to make a game out of bringing people on to the island to test his belief.
I have to say the wave was quite far fetched. It had to be a tsunami to create a wave that be and not a storm as it was shown. We saw MIB and Jacob talking at the beach after the black rock, that's clear by the fact that the statue is broken. So the ship they are looking at was probably the one that brings the new batch of people for Jacobs reality show called I'm a candidate, get me out of here :)

davidsalako said...

@MJ - I am in the same boat as you and have no clue as to how all the "leadership" hierarchies came about on the island. For someone who was remorseful about his own act of accidental murder, Richard seemed fairly comfortable with the Dharma genocide affair "The Purge". He also didn't seem shocked or sympathetic regarding Juliet's ex-husband's death and did nudge Sawyer in the direction of killing Anthony Cooper by giving him the dossier. I don't know if all these count as the right things but it does seem odd.

davidsalako said...

@Rukshan- The Tawaret statue was intact when Jacob and MIB had their conversation on the beach in the season 5 finale. Whether the ship they observed in the distance is the "Black Rock" remains unclear. Maybe the enhanced episodes can clear this one up. One thing that is certain is that the Tawaret statue was intact when Richard and his fellow captives viewed it from the "Black Rock" during the storm and the statue had been freshly destroyed when Jacob and Richard had their talk later on in the "Ab Aeterno" episode.

Holly said...

Here is an excerpt from Doc Jensen's aricle I found interesting about Wallace (yes, I'm obsessed with #108 Wallace):

"In the meantime, think about this: In Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle In Time, there's a young boy — supernaturally bright and powerful — who falls prey to an evil, disembodied mind known as IT. He turns out okay, and lives to save the day in other books. But in a subsequent series of books that take place many years after the events of A Wrinkle In Time and its sequels, we learn that this protagonist has gone mysteriously missing, allegedly on a secret mission. He never again appeared in L'Engle's books. This young man's shares his first name with three different characters on Lost: Charles. (Think: Charlie, Charles Widmore, and Charles, the son of Desmond and Penelope.) But L'Engle's Charles preferred to be called by the combination of his first and middle name: Charles Wallace. Wallace: the name at No. 108 on the dial in Jacob's Lighthouse. Now, last week, Charlotte Lewis made a return appearance in the show. Charlotte's father was named David Lewis. David Lewis is a famous philosopher who championed a theory of alternate/possible realities known as modal realities. Lewis' theories were pretty radical. He argued that even fictional fantasy worlds like Lost could exist somewhere within reality. Now, given the knowingly ironic Lost/Supernatural overlap represented by Mark Pellegrino, is it possible that ''Wallace'' is actually Charles Wallace from A Wrinkle In Time? Could he be the one that Hurley needed to bring to The Island? Is he locked up inside that room on Charles Widmore's sub? Or could he already be on The Island? Could he be... Jacob?"

Holly said...

Another thing Doc J brought up was the timeline of Jesus' trip to Hell...Thurs-Sunday "Easter"...makes me think about all the white rabbit coincidences...a wink from writers tying Easter bunnies into episodes...Easter eggs hidden in episodes as well.

Was it me or was anyone else hoping that Isabella would take over Hurley's body and we'd have a "GHOST" Whoopie/Swayze moment .... LOL How funny to see Hurley and Richard getting their hugs on...LOL

Rukshan said...

arh thanks davidsalako, I messed that one up, so that conversation was clearly before the Black Rock :s ya now I agree that its confusing how the black rock is so close to the island in clear sky, and then its suddenly stormy and they ride a huge wave in... aether that ship isn't the black rock, or Jacobs powers make conditions change and bring the ship in.

Mike V. said...

Hey guys! I'm not ignoring you I've just been super busy and have another meeting this afternoon. I actually took some time out to do a LOST chat for another website (motherjones.com). We had a nice 45 minute chat about LOST and they'll let me know when the transcript is up on their site. I'll post a link when I get it!

And I promise to catch up on these comments when I get back, though I can't promise I'll be able to respond to them all! Thanks for all of the props and keep on discussing! Looks like it's going to be a record setting week on the LOST Addicts Blog! Thanks guys!

AUStarwars said...

Mike, great and fast write up as usual, despite me bothering you over email last night lol. I was really glad you pointed out all the “this reminds me of this” scenes (like Richard killing the Dr. and Desmond with Kelvin), it helps put things in perspective. In a few months when I am sitting on my couch and watching the entire series on Blue Ray I am sure this episode will stand as one of the best of the series, from an acting and story perspective…but it should have occurred 3 seasons ago.

As much as I liked the episode last night, but we simply cannot forgive the writing staff for their apparent lack of continuity and forcing the audience throughout the series. This episode basically only existed because of the fact that Richard was written in as this seemingly minor character that people turned into this big story thinking that he was “sooo” important to the story of Lost. It’s the “Boba Fett effect.” You make a cool looking character with a few shadowy lines in one movie (or show in this case) and suddenly people think “he is another” and important to the story. So this goes on for a long time, and eventually we get a sub-par back story that fans force the writers to bring to the screen, and in the end it has zero real effect on the story as a whole. So MIB and Jacob battled over Richard’s soul, just like they have with EVERY OTHER PERSON who came to the “Island” since the beginning of time? I thought the acting was great, especially by Richard, MIB, and Jacob, but you have to admit that to dedicate a last season episode to clearing up a back story for a minor character when we could have fabricated this entire back story in a few throw away lines (like that he was in chains, he was on the Black Rock, etc) is just not necessary. Overall the episode just watched like 40 minutes of “who cares about Richard” and 25 minutes of “expansion of the amazing scene during the last episode of Season 5” that showed us Jacob and MIB to begin with.

AUStarwars said...

Mike does a great job of pointing out many of these inconsistencies. We have to ask, why do these inconsistencies exist? Laziness? Uncaring? I would say both, actually. What you have to understand about a show like Lost, which as the obsessed Star Wars fans that Lindelof and Cuse say they are (I challenge you to find an interview with the two of them where there isn’t some sort of SW merchandise in the shot) that they would write and produce a show where they wouldn’t think that dorks like us would find these things. Clearly they did a lot of these “weak explanations” because they know that people will obsess over them forever and claim “they never answered xyz thing” (how many Sopranos fans do you know that are still looking for the Russian in the Pine Barrens?). Lindelof and Cuse have already mentioned to us that we are not going to get the “Medichorloian” type answers such as what makes up Smokey (Nannites? Souls?) but to simply write off everything as “oh that’s just fans caring about too much of a level of detail” is just insulting (keep in mind I am not disagreeing with mike here, I am agreeing with him pointing out what are obvious loopholes in writing):

1. “So this answers one of our questions we have had way back since the season 2 finale. How did the statue get destroyed?” Here we have one of our first throw away scenes in the history of Lost, and a shoddy answer as to why it occurred…this time ignoring the laws of Physics.

2. “This also answers how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the Island, as the next shot we see is of this very thing. Although, I never thought that the Black Rock was in a location similar to the Statue. Jack, Rousseau and crew travelled to the Black Rock at the end of season 1 on foot while Sayid, Sun and Jin didn't pass by the statue until they headed north via boat to get to the Others' fake camp. But, whatever, maybe the wave was just that huge that it traveled for miles after a direct collision with the statue! In other words, this is the answer we're getting, we may as well accept it!” and here we have the first…I picture it going like this: TPTB “Hey wouldn’t it be cool to put a colonial looking ship in the middle of the island. YEAH!!!!” 4 years later: “oh crap we never explained how that ship got there, and we want to use it again…oh well heres another “explanation” they’ll just have to accept…yeah…ok..

3. The bringing to the Island of the Black Rock/Ship in season 5: come on, we know this was SUPPOSED to be the Black Rock the whole time, if not then the season 5 scene is just weaker imho…but for the 2 reasons above, its suddenly day becomes night and calm weather becomes a tsunami…how convenient! What a coincidence! I mean…what bad writing! We know this is never going to be seen again and fixed.

AUStarwars said...

4. Richard “later in life” in the 70s: Here is our other problem. By focusing the episode solely on 140 years ago, we lose a lot of the back story of Richard..what did he advise Widmore and Eloise when he was their “advisor”..what did he advise Ben? There are still so many unanswered questions about our immortal friend

5. “We could sit here and speculate how all of this statue debris on the beach and in the ocean are just gone in 2004-2007, but I'm going to skip right by that. Some of it probably sank to the bottom of the ocean. Everything else? Maybe Jacob has super strength and picked it up and threw it in the ocean too!”…or its just a continuity error…as usual…

6. “Jacob is upset that MIB tried to kill him and is wondering why he did it. Hmmm didn't Jacob already know that MIB wanted to kill him? He said he did in the season 5 finale. Maybe the Black Rock was BEFORE that other ship? Or was it just so we could hear MIB plead here a little more for Jacob to let him leave?” There is just little chance that we are ever going to get answers to these questions, there just isn’t time…


My overall take remains the same, how could MIB be the “bad guy” if all he is trying to do is get off the Island? Who is the one bringing people there, seemingly for redemption? Why would Jacob find it worthless to point them in the right direction without discovering it on their own, yet still bring them there to begin with? What is Jacob “trying to prove” to MIB? Why does Jacob care? Again, all unanswered questions we have contemplated since we first saw our Dynamic Duo sitting on the beach in the end of season 5…

I still think the series ends with Jack dressed in white, looking out on the ocean, with Locke sitting next to him dressed in black, and them having a mirror conversation of the season 5 finale…

Anonymous said...

There are many here worrying about how the Black Rock ended up where it did and to me it is an odd question. This is an island which it has inhabitants from multiple plane crashes that get up and walk around with barely a scratch. An island which can be moved and time can shift. How a boat got where it did on the island is not that important considering what else is going on around it. Or Maybe I am missing something. Just my two cents...

Anonymous said...

I think you guys are missing a MAIN point.

Why did Jacob defend himself when Richard tried to kill him BUT NOT when Ben killed him?

davidsalako said...

Perhaps the "Black Rock" ending up in the middle of the jungle is not such a big deal but we also have to remember that in the 19th century and who knows how much longer BEFORE that, the only way to get to the island would have been by ship.
If Jacob had been bringing folks to the island for eons - by sea is how they got there. Unless there is some other way to get to the island that has not been revealed - a reverse "donkey wheel" portal?
Another intriguing lesser mystery is how did Captain Magnus Hanso's ship log to the "Black Rock" get back to the outside world? Perhaps some previous banished Leaders of the island? A polar bear got to the unisian desert so perhaps many others before Ben and Locke did the same?
I guess some of us will just have to wait for answers in the LOSTclopedia that comes out later this year. Assuming it will have all the answers that is. lol

davidsalako said...

Good question - why did Jacob defend himself this time and not with Ben?
We need to know all "the rules"!

Candice said...

Random ?... Does anyone know why Libby was in the mental hospital with Hurley?

Courtney said...

it's true, we need to know that rules.. but i believe that by the time ben came to kill him, jacob knew it had to happen and he knew that he had planned for/ made arrangements for this to happen.

the 1870 jacob was not a "prepared" jacob, if you catch my drift. he seemed much more aggressive, less organized about what he was really trying to do on the island. by 2007 he is the peaceful, whisper something nice in your ear, always aware of what's going to happen, has a greater plan type-person that we are used to.

it's apparent to me that richard's story was important not just because inquiring losties minds wanted to know lol, but because RICHARD had a huge effect on

1) the dynamic of how mib and jacob related to eachother (i think this was the first attempt mib took at persuading someone to kill jacob, a preemptive strike that didn't work, but would work with the right person to influence - ben) and

2) it planted the seed in jacob's mind that maybe he DID need to take a little bit more control of the lives of the people coming to the island, hence him being a huge part of every single losties life in getting them to the island and trying to guide them once they were there.

Jessica said...

I haven't read all the comments yet, so I don't know if this has already been pointe out.

But, if you are wondering about the time period of the initial discussion between Jacob and MIB in "The Incident" Part 1 (enhanced version) you should watch the first 10 minutes of it on ABC.com, it says the ship in the distance is "an early 1800's wooden ship" and that the scene takes place on the island over 140 years before the present day.

Also Lostpedia says that the first time we saw Isabella it was MIB taking on her form.

Anonymous said...

Jacob did nothing to stop Ben because the MIB was right there. Jacob wanted so badly to prove that he was right, (that people aren't corruptible)and that it led to his death.

Elementary.

Anonymous said...

Jacob did nothing to stop Ben because the MIB was right there. Jacob wanted so badly to prove that he was right, (that people aren't corruptible)and that it led to his death.

Elementary.

davidsalako said...

@Courtney - I think you may be correct about Jacob becoming more skilled and sanguine at this game they are playing and MIB also becoming more skilled, complex and cunning to.
Jacob also said to MIB in "Ab Aeterno" that even if he was killed, he would be replaced so it seems that there is some higher power or force that course corrects things on the Island.

Courtney said...

so that makes me wonder:

was the "loophole" that mib found..

-the idea that someone else (ben) would have to kill jacob (which doesn't seem like he had just FOUND that, he knew it would work back when he told richard to do it.)

or was the "loophole"

-that he would have to kill one of the candidates, or just someone the losties KNEW (locke) in order to PERSUADE someone to actually DO IT? because apparently he wasn't having much luck convincing people to do it just as some guy in black that they didn't know/trust. (my guess is that this is the loophole?)

and did something happen to mib after this episode that kept him from taking on that same human form? because why he could he appear to richard in the human form (Titus Welliver) but he never attempted that with our losties? to them he was ALWAYS an apparition of a dead person or the black smoke. is there a reason for that?

MJ said...

Anonymous 2:21 - how very right you are LOL We've long wondered about how a ship got dumped in the middle, and with so many other mysteries that ARE important to the mythology it does seem silly now that you say it. ;-) The important point about the Black Rock is that we now KNOW that Richard was a slave and that Smokey came and killed whoever survived, except Richard.

Guess since we wondered for so long it's just sorta hung around in our minds.

Courtney said...

ooh good though anonymous.. elementary indeed..

it was his damn pride! :)

Anonymous said...

Hello MikeV,
I would like to elaborate on my first posting (9:12am 3-24-10)which said I thought MIB and Jacob could be “jinn” or genies. To me, the word genie conjures up (pun intended) the genie character from the animated film “Aladdin" or Jeannie from the TV series “I Dream of Jeannie”. Neither of these characters is menacing but they are magical. The term "jinn" seems to encompass a more demonic or devilish nature. They use people for their own purposes and pleasure, MIB to escape from the Island and Jacob for some sort of “science fair project” to prove a point or maybe to win a bet.
Jinn also have the power to possess humans, have much greater strength than them (Jacob was great in the fight scene with Richard), and live much longer lives (Ab Aeterno, in Latin, means "Since the Beginning of Time"). I have noticed certain characters have eyes that seem to change to a black color. For instance, Claire talking to Jin Kwon in her hovel, Claire when she is in the hole in the Temple talking to Kate, SmokeLocke talking to Sawyer about what he discovered on Hydra Island, and Widmore talking to Sawyer in the cabin in the sub. Maybe they are possessed by the MIB. However, all of these scenes were shot in dark interiors/or poor light. The characters’ eyes, all of them have light blue eyes by the way, appeared normal when they were shown in full-daylight/better lighting later in the episode.
From another SCI FI series, Star Trek (season 2 episode: Who Mourns for Adonis?) and the film Stargate, we have seen alien beings who visit earth viewed as Greek gods and Egyptian gods. I think the jinn could set themselves up as gods in the ancient Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian, Norse, and Roman cultures. This would tie in all references and mythology related to those cultures. This is all speculation. Just my way of attempting to answer all those unanswered questions and tie-up those loose ends in the LOST storyline.
LOST Fan

Courtney said...

... which also explains why miles said jacob was hoping up until the last second that he was wrong about ben. he never wanted to give up on his idea of human nature. and it did cost him his life. (or whatever he had lol)

cdstedman said...

I thought the Black Rock getting to the middle of the island was a humorous callback to Dr. Artz. He called it way back in Exodus.

Weasel said...

@Mike V.:
So then what did Desmond blowing the hatch do besides turning the sky purple?

It finished sealing off the "darkness", also preventing them from drawing power from it anymore.

davidsalako said...

I don't think it was just Jacob's pride that made him not fight back when Ben stabbed him. Jacob had and has a plan in place that surprised MIB. The confused look on MIB/FLocke's face when Jacob mentioned this as he died said it all. Jacob knew that his death would change ans shake things up a bit in whatever this game is that they are playing.

HollyP said...

For those questioning how a boat going to the New World from the Canaries could end up in the Pacific, there was no Panama Canal in 1864. If they were going to Chile, or anywhere on the Western side of the Americas they would have had to sail around the tip of S. America and be in the Pacific Ocean.

Locke was the perfect person for Smokey to use. He was a Candidate, and someone Jacob would invite into his secret lair. He was a foil for power-hungry Ben, and might be able to taunt Ben into harming Jacob. Using the form of Christian Shepherd or Harold the Balloonist wouldn't work. Smokey had to be invited into the secret lair to get to Jacob, and to be able to bring a killer with him.

Courtney said...

it sure looked like Flocke was ready to answer richard and give him his second chance huh? but Hurley got there first thank goodness and gave him his faith back! mib: "damn, i should have used the black smoke to get here, it would have been so much faster! too late now.."

i'm nervous for richard now though, i hope he is protected by jacob because in the past, when mib no longer has a use for someone, they don't last long.. ya know?

Weasel said...

@Holly: to do italic, just use these tags around your text:

<i>TEXT HERE</i>

PMG said...

This just in..... Darlton has just finished writing the final script, don't ask how I know, but I do.

Weasel said...

@AUStarWars:
My overall take remains the same, how could MIB be the “bad guy” if all he is trying to do is get off the Island?

How is a murder a bad guy if all he is trying to do is get out of jail?

Also, as far as the weather/time of day thing. When 316 crashed, it was nighttime and stormy, then all of a sudden daytime and calm. Maybe we will get a better explanation as to why that was... hopefully.

AUStarwars said...

@Weasel:

So then by definition are Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Jack, Jin, etc all "bad guys" too?

I'm just saying there seems to be more than meets the eye between our 2 dieties

Mike V. said...

Wow, that is a lot of comments!!! Talk about a bad day to be busy! Definitely will not be able to address them all. I'm just going to read to catch up and see what I have strength to comment on! lol

Holly - Would love to know who Wallace is and we still might! We'll see!

Phil - MIB has definitely done BAD things to BAD people....but does that justify what he's done? What gives him the right to do it? Yes, in the one case he saved Ben, Sawyer, Locke and crew from Keamy and we all rooted for Smokey there. But was it in his own best interest? I agree nothing is black and white...(except the outfits lol) but I think we can clearly say that MIB and Jacob have both done some things with awful outcomes! As for the women and children...Smokey killed anyone that didn't leave the temple...if there were women there..they bought it. We may just not have seen it!

David - yep I thought you'd like the 12! lol Sure seems that way with Hanso and the Black Rock crew. I thought there would be a lot more with that, but I guess it's not THAT important to know Hanso. We know a descendant of his will fund the DHARMA initiative...maybe that's all we need to know. The Encyclopedia may give more info. As I mentioned above, I agree that MIB and Jacob both have some serious issues! And as I have been mentioning for some time now (even in my chat today) I am hoping the LOSTIES just ditch both of these guys to choose their own path! We'll see though.

As for everyone talking about Jacob being violent including the Anonymous after David and Deebo. Yes, he was but Richard was also coming towards him with the "MAGIC KNIFE" that definitely holds some significance between the 2 of them. I didn't even have time to touch on it too much in the blog. But what was up with those scenes between Dogen/Sayid and MIB and Richard being so similar? And does it even matter? We saw Jacob talk to Ben and Ben still stabbed him (not with the magic knife though lol) As for Isabella....she was already dead! Whatever was on the Island was not the actual Isabella which leads us to think it was Smokey...but then I go on my whole tangent of hearing smokey from a distance while she was in there with richard. Oh well...maybe we'll find out more.

Next Anonymous - Yes, smokey has taken the appearance of many dead people to convince people to do his bidding. He appeared as Alex to Ben and we think as Isabella to Richard. Smokey also scanned Eko and did a similar thing with Yemi.

Rukshan - I've been baptized but I was an infant...I'm pretty sure they just poured water over my head lol Yeah there could be ties to one crazy baptism with Jacob and Richard....and as we have always noted...there are many religious ties on the show. I don't think that means that the ANSWERS will be religious based. I think they just like to use the themes of faith in the show. Faith vs. Science...always the classic LOST motif.

MJ - I agree with the Black Rock vs. other ship...but stuff just isn't adding up with the conversations had and all. But we do know that the weather can change unpredictably on that Island (and we don't know why Locke could always predict it)....as for night to day and day to night...i keep going back to the ajira flight that went from night to day when it got to the island. Maybe there's something there. But i see what you're saying....that could be possible.
Yeah "GHOST" dave came up earlier too...I mentioned that we have not yet confirmed he was a GHOST or a FIGMENT of imagination since we found out Hurley can see ghosts lol but i like the idea that it's libby's dead husband...it would tie those stories together nicely. I don't think you have to worry about them all being dead though! They wouldn't go there! They just wouldn't!

Glenn R. said...

Wow, great episode. And very nice recap, Mike -- you've become a regular part of my Lost ritual. And 85 posts already, just 7 hours or so after your recap! Amazing, on all counts. I haven't read the comments yet, but will do so soon, as I have time to wade through them. For now, here are a few of my reactions.

-I enjoyed Richard's backstory a lot. Fills in some pieces of the puzzle.

-I thoroughly enjoyed the new theme music Giacchino wrote for Richard's story.

- I was a bit disappointed that we never got to see how the "Others" came to be on the island. I am trusting that we'll get that story at some point.

-My take on the whole "hell" theme is that MIB & Jacob both used the language that Ricardo was familiar with. After Smokey scanned him, he spoke in terminology that optimized his ability to manipulate him -- which happened to be "You are dead and this island is hell." Hence, Richard's point of view on it all. But definitely NOT a confirmation that they are in hell.

-Can't help but ask if Hurley is going to be the new consigliere, replacing Richard. Sure seems like that is the role he is being groomed for.

-The theory that the loss of fertility on the island was either connected or correlated to the breaking of the Tawaret statue appears to be proven wrong, since we know babies were being born in the 1970s.

Anonymous said...

Let's hope they're not all dead. When Richard Alpert gave his "we're all dead" speech, I almost jumped out the window.

Hopefully Vincent will return and explain everything to us!

Glenn R. said...

-When Isabella appeared at the end, with Hurley interpreting, my mind immediately went to -- "Could that be Jacob?" Then as I thought about it more, I was very intrigued by the parallel that was being drawn between Dogen's message to Sayid and MIB's message to Richard. It seemed as if Darlton were trying to tell us something by using the exact same instructions in both situations. Maybe they were hinting that both MIB and Jacob will use the same (or any) means necessary to accomplish their objectives. Including apparitions. That really they are not so different after all? WHich led me back to Isabella at the end. Maybe the writers are hinting that both MIB and Jacob can and will use the same means -- and thus maybe it is entirely possible (even symmetrical) that Isabella (at the end) was being played by Jacob.

-If that's true, then I guess it's possible that Jacob also played Isabella when richard was in the ship. I'm not as sold on that, since the whole situation was so reminiscent of what Smokey did to both Eko and Locke. I had been feeling certain that that was Smokey playing Isabella in the ship. I tool the rattling sounds while Isabella was talking to Richard as just another capability of Smokey that we hadn't seen before. But after reading your summary, I am not so sure anymore. Perhaps that was Jacob playing Isabella both times. I'm just not as clear on what Jacob's motive was during that first Isabella scene.

-Jacob being able to appear as an apparition of an important person in the Candidates lives also fits with my belief that the early appearances of Christian were actually Jacob (e.g when he helped Jack find water), while the later ones (beginning with when Christian convinced Claire to go to the cabin with him) were MIB. It also explains the horse that Kate saw and also Ben's mother, who led Ben to Richard.

I do not know! Now I'll begin the weekly laborious process of reading all the comments! See you again after I read the entire novel! ;-)

AreUPokey said...

A comment on the Night-Day thing;

A number of people have mentioned this and some have even expressed outrage about it (Those lazy writers!)

But as Mike pointed out the Ajira flight underwent a similar change and let's not forget the initial Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond helicopter flight to the freighter where they were in a dark storm and then suddenly were landing on the boat in sunny skies.

And my final point-
Faraday confirmed to everyone in season 4 that time passes differently on the island. Remember the little rocket experiement? And the dead doctor washing up on shore while he was still alive on the freighter?

I think before we start calling out the writers for being lazy we need to take a moment to consider the entirety of the show. It may shed some light.

Mike V. said...

Don - I thought the same thing back then with the smoke detector. But Now I just don't know because Smokey is trapped on the Island. But I see that you're saying maybe he's not trapped. Dunno. I still think Christian wasn't always a Smokey apparition...and that maybe we saw his Ghost as well. Then again, why can't Jack see Ghosts but he possibly saw his father as a ghost? ugh... The worst thing about Desmond's vision of Claire and Aaron...is that Desmond specifies "Claire and the BABY" not just Aaron....so 3 years later, it's hard to say that even if Aaron is back if he'd be a baby. I'm not sure if we're ever going to see that vision come to fruition. Maybe in sideways land, but I certainly haven't forgotten it! I think Jacob's process of naming candidates and "pushing them" to the Island is different than him interfering once they are on the island. But yeah, I think he may have semi changed his mind after talking to Richard. Good question about Jacob leaving Richard in the black rock...i have no answer but agree it's great speculation!

MJ - I know what you were saying with the Recon pop-up...you asked WHEN THAT HAPPENED, didn't you? So, I looked back at "The Incident" blog and copied and pasted the comment dealing with the same scenario letting you know that it actually happened! LOL I wasn't saying it would make you remember! You'll have to watch the episode again to do that. But Locke didn't tell Richard to deal with the ajira passengers...i think he said something like "we're gonna have to deal with them" after they went to see Jacob. Or you can just read what Deebo said right after your comment (and I'm sure you already read it!) Or you could read David's comment...but it definitely happened in "THE INCIDENT"

Stedman - come on man....2nd least favorite episode! lol Stranger in a Strange Land still beats it!

MJ again - interesting idea with the "LEADERS" of the Others. I really don't know. I guess I just assumed that once Richard got involved they created some structure to the people on the Island. And once they all weren't killed off, then they needed a leader and rules and all of that fun stuff. ahhhhh rules..... And I see you read David and Deebo now...so I'm sorry for restating! lol

Cajun - Thanks for the props! Agree with your first paragraph...great episode! Interesting with Richard dying to be with Isabella...and everyone's theories on Hurley becoming advisor is a good one. with the big IF that a candidate will succeed Jacob in the end. I guess there could be something to the fact that MIB had the necklace. But I don't think he is doing the Ghostly images. There's Ghosts and there is Smokey....this show is so nuts! lol
Fresh Episode Anonymous - I agree it was a refreshing change to go back to backstories but yes we will have to return to the Flash Sideways. I still maintain that they're going to get more interesting once we find out what is going on. We'll see! As for Flocke being the Locke in sideways land...it could be...but wouldn't say he's much different than anyone else that has had a sideways story. They all have something different about them. But who knows!?

Holly, I think I need to digest Doc in a separate session! lol I love reading his articles but when he gets into those literary references, I usually find myself skipping ahead! :-) lol Did he actually suggest that a fictional character from a book is locked behind that door? LOL I did think we were going the "GHOST" route for a little but with that final Richard/Isabella/Hurley scene...good times!

Okay..I'm caught up to my first comment during my break from the comments! lol

Mike V. said...

Wow AU Star Wars...thank you for making me come off like the BAD guy! LOL J/k I did point out all of those "inconsistencies" for a reason. I'm hoping some will get explained but you bring up some decent points. The Boba Fett analogy is a good one...but I would say that no one cared about Richard until the WRITERS made him important by showing him the same age in ben's flashback episode. And then, Nestor Carbonell was snatched up by another show in season 4....CANE was it? So Cane was cancelled at mid-season and Darlton worked hard to get Nestor signed up for season 5 part time and season 6 full time. Mission accomplished! so, the reason we didn't get his episode until this season could have been more contractually a problem. But....yeah there definitely was some last minute brainstorming going on with how they handled some of this story. But, until this show is officially over I am going to reserve any complaints I have in lieu of just enjoying the show and the ride. If we get episodes like last night that are just great hours of TV...I'm all for it. You gotta just forget that this is the last season and enjoy! Plenty of time to complain after! (or make up our own excuses for how it works! lol) As for your prediction on the end...it's a good one...but I like things coming more full circle....while I don't want Jack to die...I still would love the last shot of the series to be Jack's eye closing after an awesome slow motion montage to Giacchino's 'Life and Death' Theme. ahhh it's gonna be legendary!

Mike V. said...

Anonymous - it's a good point that this is one crazy island....i like Darlton's "go to" line as well....."THERE'S A SMOKE MONSTER ON THE ISLAND!" That pretty much sums up that anything is possible on LOST lol

Next Anonymous - I think Jacob was prepared to die when Ben killed him....he had his ducks in a row. I don't think this was the case when Richard was the only living person besides Jacob and MIB on the island (another point i didnt' bring up in the blog)

David - I too wondered about the Ship log getting to the outside world....i was speculating that maybe widmore was involved (even though he purchased it at the auction)...or maybe it fell out of the black rock during the storm and floated to whatever island it was found on. And yes...the Encyclopedia will be awesome...I'm sure it will still miss stuff though! lol

Candice - we don't know yet...but rumor has it Libby will return this season for some closure!

Courtney - Glad we're on the same page with Jacob! lol And I like your thoughts on the importance of the Richard story as well.

Jessica - that's all well and good that LOSTpedia confirmed Isabella was MIB....it is a safe assumption...but they are not necessarily RIGHT! lol As for "an early 1800's wooden ship" that could mean anything! 140 years before present would put it at 1867...so it sounds like they're confirming it's the Black Rock....so they have some splainin to do!

Anonymous - Good point also that Jacob was trying to prove a point with Ben!

Courtney - Yeah, it seemed MIB's loophole was one pretty elaborate scheme when it eventually worked. But mabye Richard was his first attempt at trying to kill him. As for appearing to Richard...he did appear to him as Smokey first....he just appeared as the MIB much sooner lol Not sure where I'm going with any of this...just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

Mike V. said...

Jinn Anonymous (LOST FAN) - Understood on Jinn vs. Genie! lol It all makes sense based on what you're saying. And maybe that is what is inspiring some of their writing, but I don't know if this show is ever going to come out and say that these guys are JINN....since many people, including myself, have probably never heard of them! Could you imagine Jacob taking to Jin and saying "Jin, me and MIB are Jinn, do you understand me Jin?" Sun: JIN where? MIB: HERE! I'm Jinn! Jacob: No "WE'RE" Jinn! Jin: ME JIN! Kate in her best "This baby is all of ours": WE ARE ALL JINN! Alas, though I'm just messing. lol It's just me making up for the fact that I cannot intellegently continue the discussion on Jinn because I lack the knowledge! :-) lol you could be right! And I enjoyed the theory!

Stedman - good call on Arzt, he sure did. Remember when everyone was seeing if they wrote in the Tsunami that happened back in December of 2004 into the show? Turns out they didn't, but we still got a big wave!

Weasel - Sounds good to me! lol

HollyP - I still maintain the "MOVING ISLAND" is the answer there. We already resolved that in season 4 so they didn't feel they had to explain it again! Harold the Balloonist? Do you mean Henry Gale? Which reminds me, I guess we're never getting his story! LOL

Courtney - yeah it's going to be interesting to see what Smokey has in store for the NON-Recruits....and what TEAM JACOB is going to do to try to take him down (if that's where it's going)

Nice PMG - they were late if that's the case...they tweeted it would be done by the end of last weekend! But i just checked twitter and they recorded a podcast that is going up on EW.com by the end of the day (WHY EW???) anyway, they're going to reveal the final episode title!

Mike V. said...

Pokey...yeah that came up in my chat as well about light scattering. I agree, we shouldn't call these writers lazy just yet. I don't think I would anyway...they took on a show that grew exponentially and they have done an amazing job with it! Glenn, I'm going to your comments next.

I just wanted to share the link to the chat I did with the folks at Mother Jones ...enjoy!

http://motherjones.com/lost-season-six-theory-ab-aeterno.

Mike V. said...

Glenn, we kind of DID see the origins of the OTHERS indirectly...with Richard taking on the advisor role and all. MIB may not get a chance to kill and corrupt everyone as easily...I dunno. I'm making that up....it would be nice to see their origin story, but I'm not sure we're getting it!

I have thought that too since we knew it was the God of Fertility "TAWARET" that it has something to do with childbirth issues....but the problem is..Juliet delivered a child on the island in 1977. So I'm not so sure! That leaves THE PURGE as another big event that could have caused it...but I don't know how that makes much sense either.

I guess we need more information on the GHOST images on the Island before we can assume if Jacob is behind them and everything. after all Jacob is a ghost himself now! What gives with that!?

I dunno...I'm running out of fumes here. But I'm all caught up! Thanks for the props Glenn and everyone else! I can't believe we're already near 100 comments! The blog is definitely on fire today! So much for getting to 200,000 hits by the finale....we may get to 250,000 now!

Thanks for your support!

Mike V. said...

Man, they really edited our chat on that site down! I know I talked about a lot more than that! LOL

Jessica said...

I actually drew the opposite conclusion Mike V. It said "early" 1800's wooden ship, to me that means prior to 1850 and definitely not 1867. Also it said "over" 140 years, which means before 1867, so definitely not the Black Rock.

Thanks for the clear up on Lostpedia, I assumed if it was in there that is was a fact. I guess I was wrong.

Anonymous said...

You said how 'Jacob does not have the power to bring back his wife or absolve his sins.' I DONT think that is the case at all. I think Jacob COULD do that, but CHOOSE not to. Before he says that he can't do that he paused for a second and looked like he was thinking about it.

Maybe he knew that if Richard had his wife than he would not do his bidding or that he would not care to sin or something along that line

Anonymous said...

You said how 'Jacob does not have the power to bring back his wife or absolve his sins.' I DONT think that is the case at all. I think Jacob COULD do that, but CHOOSE not to. Before he says that he can't do that he paused for a second and looked like he was thinking about it.

Maybe he knew that if Richard had his wife than he would not do his bidding or that he would not care to sin or something along that line

Anonymous said...

You said how 'Jacob does not have the power to bring back his wife or absolve his sins.' I DONT think that is the case at all. I think Jacob COULD do that, but CHOOSE not to. Before he says that he can't do that he paused for a second and looked like he was thinking about it.

Maybe he knew that if Richard had his wife than he would not do his bidding or that he would not care to sin or something along that line

Anonymous said...

Every once in a while someone mentions Kate and the black horse. Yes, it seemed odd at the time, but think about it. There were horses on the island when Widmore was there (around the time Eloise conceived Daniel). It seemed odd when we saw it because you don't normally see horses in the jungle. There are a lot more important mysteries to be concerned about that this so let's put this one to rest please! Cajun QT

Mike V. said...

Jessica, it's usually a safe bet if it's on lostpedia. But it is a fan site. They may have some editors on there helping them out not sure. But it's definitely not run by the official lost production team. So I'm not sure how they concluded it based on what we saw. But like I said it's probably a safe bet it's right! Lol

As for the ship. I was suggesting that even an early 1800's boat could be traveling in 1867 couldn't it? Lol I guess you could be right that it Pre dates the black rock. Of anything it would have to predate since the statue was still intact. I just don't know why they'd go to all of that trouble to show another ship when we all would assume it's the Black rock. Oh well lol

Jessica said...

Still haven't gotten all the way through the comments, (too many interruptions) Freaking Co-Workers!! LOL!! But I'm surprised no one has mentioned that when Ben killed Jacob, he didn't use the "special" dagger and he spoke with Jacob before he stabbed him. So why would MIB tell Richard the same spiel that Dogen told Sayid? (sorry if I spelled names wrong)

I'm kind of thinking that maybe the time period we're seeing MIB and Jacob in in 1867 that they may be role reversed. MIB did say that Jacob took his body/humanity, I don't know it's just a thought but it seems there was only one way to kill the "bad" guy and that was confirmed when MIB told Richard how to kill the "devil", so why was Ben able to kill Jacob so easily?

jessica said...

Mike V. I think they might have just been trying to show us that Jacob is the one who actually "brings" people to the island. I think if it was intended to be the Black Rock they would have done one of those classic slow mo close ups on the front of the ship with some dramatic music in the background at the exact moment we saw the words "Black Rock". LOL

I think everyone just automatically assumed it was the BR because it's the only old ship we've ever seen on Lost, but they were probably trying to get it in our heads that Jacob has been bringing people to the island for a very very long time.

HurleyAteMe said...

Mike V

That was one of your best recaps ever!

I only have questions after this episode. What could the end game possibly be? Why was Jacob searching for a replacement in the first place with all these candidates? He seems to be immortal! maybe he wants to leave the island like MIB

It also appears that by bringing these people to the island, Jacob gives MIB his only chance at a loophole to actually get a chance to leave the island.

If Jacob is responsible for bringing people to the island, are we suppose to think that the black rock was a freak occurence or did he intend to bring Richard to the island and make him his advisor, for that matter what about people like Henry Gales in the hot air balloon? Can you get to the island by accident or is Jacob always the reason behind them being there? I wonder if all of the DI were hand picked by Jacob.

I agree with one other poster, we need the Rules but I would love anyone's thoughts on the above.

davidsalako said...

BTW Mike V., the screen shots posted on your blog for this episode are amazing. I know you didn't take them but you did select them!

Deebo said...

@Ano nymous
Let's hope they're not all dead. When Richard Alpert gave his "we're all dead" speech, I almost jumped out the window.
LMAO I felt the exact same way when I heard him say that but I think it is way to early to rule out purgatory…My question is why did Richard say that they were all dead on the beach when he went off island to see Locke, Juliet etc..? So they can’t be dead but Hurley’s last words were “or they go to hell” so I don’t know

Gunner said...

I know this is strange but when Jacob came up to see MIB at the end, did anyone else think of the coyote and the sheepdog from the old cartoon? The way the they would fight all day and then talk like friends at the end/beginning of each day. I know not much for the answers to the questions but...

Mike V. said...

Hey guys, just wanted to share the EW link to Darlton's latest podcast where they announce the title of the finale episode. Definitely not spoilerish at all, but I wanted to share.

They also pretty much confirmed it was the Black Rock in the season 5 finale and that we should definitely expect more stuff on the ISLAND storms in future episodes! YAY!!

An entertaining podcast as always...check it out! And what do you think of the final episode title? I say very fitting but "SERIOUSLY???" LOL

Darlton Podcast

Mike V. said...

Thanks on the screenshots Props David! I can't take credit for all of them as Dark UFO posts a bunch after the episode. But ever since I got my iMac I've been snapping a bunch by transferring the HD version of the show from my tivo to the computer. It's a good time but time consuming! :-)

Anonymous said...

I agree about Hurley and Lapidus playing major roles in the end game. But why is everybody forgetting about Jack? The HERO! lols

Holdo

DK MD said...

My guess is that Charles Widmore was on the first ship seen at the end of Season five (not the black rock). The statue was intact at the end of the Jacob-MIB scene; seas smooth, etc. Suspect there is an analogy between: first ship <> black rock :: oceanic 815 <> Arjira....

DK MD said...

Suspect the analogy:

1st Ship seen
--------------------
Black Rock (Storm)

TO

Oceanic 815
----------------
Arjira

And that Charles Widmore was aboard Ship #1

HurleyAteMe said...

2 other observations from last nites episode.

1. could the Priest have mispoke Whitfield for Whitmore and that be a descendant of Richard on the Black rock

2. Major similarity between Richard and Isabella learning english to go to the new world just like Sun learning english to move to america.

Room 118 said...

what about Aaron being the 6th candidate? have you already said that and I missed it? How do we know that Jacob never touched Aaron?

davidsalako said...

@Mike V. - I like the series finale title. Very "Jacoblike" wording. Starting to feel sad already that the ending of the LOSTIES' odyssey is nigh.

Florin Milea said...

Mike V - A WOW/antastic definitive episode, with the we’re al dead, my heart leaped on the rooftop; I couldn’t have been right? to so many questions answered, the statue toppled by a tsunami. and the twists with is Smokey good or Jacob, the dagger, the lines about chains, the wine bottle, etc.

America was found earlier. but the Europeans continued to call the Americas’ the New World for quite sometime after even in the early 19 century.

With the priest, I think it could’ve been Smokey’s earlier works or the writers didn’t do their homework? After all the hieroglyphs one could hardly think so. But I found it crazy to say; Ricardo you’re going to hell and than finish with the the Lord may have mercy on your soul. Really!

I think that the island is permanently living in a slightly different time or dimension. remember from the freighter season the same thing was happening to Frank piloting the chopper for almost 12 or 24 hours -number 24, while on the island it should’ve taken only some 20 minutes. Sayid even asked Frank if he’s aware that they took off the island at dawn and now, instantly it was midday. And they all flew during raging storms in and out the island. If one didn’t hit the right 3.0.5 bearing would’ve died, mysteriously wind up back to the island, or gone nuts. It must’ve been a protective barrier set by Jacob, the wheel been turned, a lot of theories can be thrown in. follow the link
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Exotic_matter

I never rooted for the smoke thing, no matter what, but I think that Jacob could have caused visions just as smokey. Jacob used then for the right reason. But your take is just as good. I would think that smokey could recreate dead people just from the memory he extracted. If I am right, John Locke’s dead body was needed to prove to all candidates - remember Kate’s famous line; Very insightful from a dead man, and many knowing that John Locke is not John Locke anymore. Dogen even told Sayid that the evil will come in the form of a dead person we know.

The tides over the years could have sanked the pieces. In the S1 Jack warned they need to move the camp because of the tides, whereas the wreckage will be carried under water just like the luggage's they were salvaging from the waves.

So the drowning was a way of proving one not dead? Sayid anyone. I think that the water in the temple turned dark because Jacob was dead indeed.

Correction MIke V - It was James ‘Sawyer’ Ford who mercy killed the marshal but missed, not Jack.

Wasn’t that line next to Ben, ooh, this should be interesting, when Jacob offers a job to Ricardo. I would personally have been dumbfounded for weeks after a such request, after all the hell I’ve been through. So Jacob is not God, but an Angel of God with certain powers to keep the evil bottled up. With John Locke thrown off the window, whenever got the idea that he was dead although it appeared so.

Florin Milea said...

There's no question Mike V that Ricardo could leave the island either with the help of Jacob, or with the submarine. Mr Friendly did when he visited Michael in NY.

Florin Milea said...

It reminds me from the doodle of a black smoke from the Locke's years as a child. Smoke claimed John Locke long before he came to the island.

Mike RM said...

I must confess I haven't read all 100+ comments yet, but I just had an idea I wanted to share.

Perhaps the reason why Smokey kills someone people immediately but lets other live is that he wants to prove that good people can be corrupted, but if they are already corrupted then there is no point to it so he just kills them.

Anonymous said...

Just thought i would let you know about your description of richard an the others that were in chains in black rock as slaves....

they were not slaves they were prisoners.... they did a crime and were arrested.

ps the only survivors will be 100%

KATE
CLAIRE
SAWYER
HURLEY
MILES
JIN
SUN
DESMOND

sayid, frank, ben linus and ilana will die.


and

Jack will be Jacobs replacement.


a rumor i heard that locke is not dead. and he might be Jacobs replacement???

dont know how though.

Anonymous said...

What about Rose and her husband. We havnt heard from them since they were found by Kate, Sawyer, and Juliet back in 1977.

Also notice that there are two Kwons, but only one went back with the rest of the candiates.

Mike V. said...

Okay, back to the responses!

Anonymous with the 3 same posts - I just assumed that we were learning more about what Jacob "CAN" do in that scene....and we know that bringing people back from the dead is a big "NO NO" on this show. Even though it appears it happened several times, we always find out that Dead is Dead. So whoever mentioned that maybe Sayid is a potential "substitute or candidate" for Smokey...maybe that's not a bad idea!

Cajun - I don't think anyone thought much about the black horse on the island until Kate also saw it in her flashback! And ironically, Darlton just brought up the black horse in their podcast. Someone suggested that it was the smoke monster in a Q&A and they were still speculating while answering that they weren't sure if it was the smoke monster or not...usually when they do that, it means there is still an answer coming. So if they haven't let it go...why should we? lol

Upper case Jessica - Sorry about your coworkers...I think I actually did mention Ben killing Jacob "WITHOUT" the special dagger in the comments you haven't gotten to yet....and yeah i definitely wanted to explore the Sayid/Dogen vs. MIB/Richard dagger speech more. Why was it so similar? I don't have an answer, but it definitely was intriguing! Your theory of MIB and Jacob being reversed is an interesting one, but I think I'm going to have to disagree...on that podcast Darlton talked about the "WINE" scene with Jacob as a very pivotal scene in the show. When they were writing it they were determining if they should "talk around" the subject one more time...but then they decided....No, this is near the end of the show, it's time to explain the Island's purpose....and for 6 years they said they have been using that Wine analogy in the writer's room. Anyway, my point is...I think Jacob has been in the same role for awhile. However, they did suggest that Jacob could be lying about there not being other people alive on the island in 1867....and they still are hinting that MIB's stance on things could be right....They still weren't ruling it out. Consider me intrigued! lol

Lowercase jessica - yeah, I can see them looking at showing various ships coming to the island from that perspective, but come on...we haven't seen many ships just lounging about and shipwrecked on the island have we? meanwhile the black rock, oceanic 815 and ajira 316 and desmond's sailboat were all readily available for scenery all these years! I just don't buy it...and Darlton doesn't buy it either! lol In the podcast they did say that many people were speculating on the night vs. day thing....and they pretty much confirmed that it is the black rock and that we will be seeing much more with storms on the island (and that maybe right after that daytime scene the skies may have darkened and the storm started)....as i mentioned....there have always been mysteries around the weather on the island all the way back to the pilot episode, so I'm glad they're going to address this.

more comments in a second!

Mike V. said...

HurleyAteMe, thanks for the huge props! You're far too kind! Good question on Jacob seeking replacements..i think he knew that his time would come to an end eventually, especially with MIB looking to kill him. But as Stedman mentioned above...if Jacob never brought people to the island there never would have been a threat to kill him. But then I guess life would get very boring and Jacob seems a little stubborn in proving his points! Ahhh I just read your 2nd paragraph where you said the same thing lol Good questions on getting to the island by accident and Henry Gale...i sure would like to know his story but who knows if we ever will? I think the black rock was purely intentional and am going with Darlton on the fact that the ship in the season 5 finale was the Black Rock!

David - I know I already responded to the screenshots, but realized I read it wrong the first time! lol Any of the shots that you see the wording in the bottom corner was from the Dark UFO site....anyone without them (i don't care if people steal them! lol) was from the iMac (for anyone who has a mac, command - shift - 4 takes wonderful screenshots! but you still have to get the shows on your computer and not in itunes! :-))

Gunner - I'm probably a little embarrassed to say but I don't know about coyote and sheepdog but it is interesting that you brought up they talk like friends....it is interesting!

Holdo - I never forget about Jack! I always remind everyone about him because there are many haters out there, for God knows why. He definitely is the "HERO" of the show by design. Yes, they were originally going to kill him in the pilot, but then ABC shot it down and they said "no...this guy is your hero...people want to root for him" So instead of casting michael keaton in a role where he would die...they cast matthew fox as someone who would be on the show for the entire run. There is no way he won't play major part in the end. But I'm still not ruling out the fact that he will die in the end.

DK MD - Interesting analogies to the 1st ship/Black Rock and Oceanic/Ajira....And Widmore being on the first ship. So you think he's a little older than he seems too? Only thing is that, as I mentioned in these recent comments, Darlton are pretty much confirming that we saw the Black Rock in season 5's finale. (i wonder if that anonymous poster is getting frustrated with me constantly saying "as i mentioned before" again! oh well)

HurleyAteMe - I'm going with 99% no that the priest messed up and called "WHITMORE", Whitfield lol While it may happen in real life, I don't think they would confuse us even more on a television show! Plus it's Widmore anyway lol Very good point on Richard/Isabella learning english and Sun (and eventually Jin) learning english....it seemed like Isabella already knew english by her "your english is good" comment and Richard was still learning when she died. And well..Sun knew english and Jin learned...but that could all be speculation! lol

Room 118 - Never mentioned Aaron being the 6th candidate...or maybe someone did but it's been awhile. We don't know if Jacob touched Aaron...but just saying that sentence makes me feel like Dateline is going to come to the Island and do a special "predators" episode with Jacob! LOL I guess it's always a possibility....but his name isn't on the wall or the dial if it is the case!

David - yes I am also said that the ending is in sight and after some thought i do like episode title for the ending episode! (LOL)

Mike V. said...

Florin - Definitely was an awesome episode!! Thanks for the info on the "NEW WORLD" from the european perspective! I agree it was crazy for the priest to say that richard is going to hell....but he didn't seem to be a priest with a good heart anyway (taking the money for Richard and all) I don't think it was smokey as he cannot leave the island! Yeah there definitely is the whole "LIGHT scattering" issue with the island so a different dimension is possible i guess....i just never thought the show would really go there. We'll see!

I refuse to agree with your correction on Sawyer killing the Marshal...like you said...he missed! So Jack had to suffocate him against his will.

And yes...once Richard was working for Jacob he obtained the "PRIVILEGED INFORMATION" to be able to leave the island and come back. And we can assume Tom Friendly did as well. Did I dispute that? lol

home stretch in the comments!

Mike V. said...

Mike RM - good theory on Smokey....but if one of the rules is that they come to the island with a clean slate...then what is he proving by killing them? I think you're on the right track...but i think it's more "are they corruptible?" At least with Richard. I like people's theories that when the oceanic crew came...he did have a big plan....and he may have been looking for the survivor that would give him access to Jacob in the long run. He sat back and observed for awhile....but when smokey came in contact with Locke and Eko he didn't kill them right away. He gathered intel and then left. Eko turned out not to work for his cause but Locke was a believer right from the start so he was his guy...and then Ben played into his plan nicely. I'm not sure where i'm going with this...just rambling on as I always do! lol

Anonymous - I beg to disagree with the fact that Richard and crew were not slaves on the black rock. Right from season 1 Locke gave us the history lesson about the mining ships and how they brought slaves with them. I don't think this was ever a question...but even if it was....yes Richard was a prisoner...but he was a prisoner that MAGNUS HANSO "PURCHASED" to work on his ship. They certainly didn't free him and he was no longer a prisoner that was going to be hanged. So, what's left? Slave!

Interesting theories on the survivors and how everything is going to go down. I'm still considering the fact that there will be NO replacement for Jacob and that the LOSTIES are going to overthrow the entire operation! lol

I've heard the rumor too on Locke being Jacob's replacement...but he most certainly is dead in the island timeline...sideways? Well...it is most likely locke but it could be MIB...we don't know for sure.

Last anonymous - i'm still waiting on Rose and Bernard too! I'm sure we'll see them eventually...surely they didn't stay behind in 1977 but I guess they could have! Yep, only one Kwon went back to 1977....that is a possible explanation for why they split up. And since Kate is on the dial it may explain why she went back too. But then why did Faraday, Miles, Charlotte and Juliet go back? Well....actually...all of their names were on the wall too I think (not sure about Faraday) Interesting!

Oh well...gotta get to work..great comments everyone! Keep it up!

rhinoceros said...

I am not even going to try and read all comments, 100 plus already.for me an episode that will go down as one of the best. The acting was great, the scenes in Spain were believable.

Once again mike, a fine post. You have to stop bringing up all these extra questions. ;). Seriously, it's just inevitable and I get the feeling we will still have questions once this season is over.

Anyhow, I have a query, what is the significance of naming the ship the blackrock? Black and white and opposing forces are common themes of course, so what is the opposing force of the ship?

I have no theories.

Next week can only be a let down now.

Chris

Penner said...

Great epsiode & Recap.

When Widmore purchased the journal of a former Back Rock crew member at the auction, I thought others would have survived the shipwreck & we know Richard never went back (however that seems unlikely if he needed supplies) so how did that journal escape the island....

We keep talking about Jacob's replacemnt but the MIB told Ben( as Alex) that he should not kill Locke. So that means he could be killed in some manner but this island needs both side (it's ying & yang) so will MIB need a replacment if Flocke is killed?

Mike V. said...

Rhinoceros/Chris - I'm not sure why your comment didn't post. Here's what he wrote.

"I am not even going to try and read all comments, 100 plus already.for me an episode that will go down as one of the best. The acting was great, the scenes in Spain were believable.

Once again mike, a fine post. You have to stop bringing up all these extra questions. ;). Seriously, it's just inevitable and I get the feeling we will still have questions once this season is over.

Anyhow, I have a query, what is the significance of naming the ship the blackrock? Black and white and opposing forces are common themes of course, so what is the opposing force of the ship?

I have no theories.

Next week can only be a let down now.

Chris "


Anyway, thanks for the props and totally agree we will have questions at the end. I only hope to be satisfied by the ending! Episode was amazing, I totally agree. No idea the significance of naming the ship the Black Rock...but maybe we'll see another ship called the "WHITE STONE" before the end of the show! lol I'm sure when we first heard the name (we didn't know it was a ship)...and we were all about our black and white themes and stones in season 1...so maybe that's why they named it that way. But I wouldn't be looking for an opposing force to the ship! We'll see though!

Mike V. said...

Thanks Penner! I speculated that maybe Widmore was involved in getting the journal from the black rock (just doesn't explain why he would buy it then! lol) Or maybe it fell out into the ocean during the storm or something like that. But I, like you, thought people on the ship would survive a lot longer.

yeah....even MIB said "it's kill or be killed..and I don't want to be killed" so there must be some way to kill him. Some people were speculating above that maybe Sayid could be a Smokey replacement...it might explain the fact why he's still walking around. We'll see!

davidsalako said...

I still want to know what Ilana's last name is! She seemed to heal pretty quickly in the Russian hospital most likely due to Jacob's help. I wonder what qualities qualify one to be a "candidate"? Perhaps tey have innate "gifts" that they just aren't really aware of or haven't tapped into fully? The late Bram and presently Ilana seem pretty loyal to the island cause, so why aren't they "candidates"?

Kim said...

Ok....this was a GREAT EP. My third fave of season 6. I think the acting was some of the BEST in the series. I loved this ep but I am still very confused about the intent of Jacob and his pal.....I feel like things are not as they seem somehow. What a great show, too bad it has to end.

Jessica said...

Mike V. I'm both Jessica's, just go lazy when I posted my name the second time. :)

I have 2 questions for you; the first question is what exactly Darlton said in the pod cast that hinted at the ship in the season 5 finale being the Black Rock? If it was I can see how it makes sense, I don't really question the weather conditions, because the weather has always been goofy on this show. But, what I don't get is why they couldn't just make it clear to the audience that it was the Black Rock, especially in the enhanced episode, why would they go to all the trouble of writing "early 1800's wooden ship"? What a round about lengthy description of the BR.

My other question to you is regarding the ISLAND. Before Ep 9 was aired there was a lot of hype on the web surrounding the ISLAND's description (CORK) and it seems like no one is really picking up on that being such a pivotal point, and huge reveal (at least here in the comments). I was just wondering if this was mentioned further in the pod cast and why you haven't really expressed an opinion on that?

Thanks for the time and truly love your blog.

Peter said...

Great episode and your racap gave me some good food for thought Mike. Only got to watch it last night, finding it hard to read all the comments again, but something stuck out to me. I think I saw it mentioned, but how the hell would the black rock end up in the pacific after setting sail into the atlantic...?! weird. Maybe the fact that the island moves and at that point it was actually in the atlantic?

davidsalako said...

@Peter - The island has the ability to move both geographically and temporally it would seem. Or it has the ability to give certain inhabitants on the island time traveling abilities at least...
This is why the intense mathematical calculations (and huge pendulum!) at the Lamppost Dharma Station is needed to track it for its brief appearances to the outside world...

Anonymous said...

@rhinoceros
I think that the writers of LOST chose to name the ship Black Rock after the song entitled Black Rock by O.A.R. This song is about an actual place lead singer Marc Roberge and other band members went during high school in Montgomery County, Maryland. There were woods along a section of Black Rock Road in Germantown where they would go hang out. The song is about going to a place special to you when you need to get away. At many shows, Roberge alters the lyrics and sings "We all have our black rock, it's in our minds." This is one of my favorite songs by O.A.R. I think it's because the song talks about how people have a place that they go to when they need to reflect about occurrences in their lives. The people on the Island need to “let go” of the bad things from their past and get on with their lives. This is a sort of redemption , which is one of the main themes of LOST.
Lyrics to song: http://www.lyricsdomain.com/15/oar/black_rock.html
Listen to O.A.R perform song:
http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569509609495344
LOST Fan

Anonymous said...

I started reading this blog when season 6 began and I wish I would have started reading it sooner. I think it's fantastic and I wish I had more time to read all of the comments. Thanks a lot for your summaries every week, Mike!
KimB

Mike X said...

not sure if this has been asked before, but is MIB being played by Anthony Bourdain?

MJ said...

I think your ditching wish is already inplay Mike. Sawyer has already stated that his plan is to let Widmore and Flocke have at it while he makes a move to get him and whoever is with him off the island. And Jacob just gave us a big ole nugget - he does not want to interfere and wants the people who are brought to make the right choices because they are right. He then decided to let Richard be his go-between. And since this whole thing has never ended I guess we can say that Richard has done a pretty crappy job. LOL So - yeah - at some point our divided teams will all meet up at the war and decide to all walk away together - leaving only adam and eve. Starting to think A&E are Jacob and MIB though !

My thoughts on both Sayid and Ricardo being told not to let the killee talk before killing them goes with the school of not being able to determine who is bad/good yet. It's all gray area. And both MIB and Jacob know that neither of them are totally right or wrong - so telling these people to kill before the guy can talk is a way of trying to prevent your killer from being talked out of it.

We've seen 'others', the military and Dharma come and go soany one of those could have brought that ship log back and sold it to the auction house. I'm thinking that's all we are going to get on the Black Rock so it's a non-issue.

MIB did say that Jacob took his body/humanity but I'm looking at it as an imprisonment. Instead of chains his physical form is taken. Kinda like the Mummy movies - MIB has no physical form and keeps trying to manifest one he can hold onto in order to get back to the world. And Jacob is kind of the gate keeper who is going to do whatever he has to to keep that from happening. Anything.

My big question is - we thought the place (815) crashed because Desmond did not input the numbers - but now we know that Jacob was watching our castaways for years. So - was it really Des - or was it Jacob ???

The last ep title is a little dull - but I guess they want to make sure the name told us absolutly nothing !! LOL It's the next to final ep's name that scares me !!

Jessice - I feel your pain ! My co-workers were on my a** all day yesteday - like I am supposed to work on post-Lost day ! SHeesh

MJ said...

I think your ditching wish is already inplay Mike. Sawyer has already stated that his plan is to let Widmore and Flocke have at it while he makes a move to get him and whoever is with him off the island. And Jacob just gave us a big ole nugget - he does not want to interfere and wants the people who are brought to make the right choices because they are right. He then decided to let Richard be his go-between. And since this whole thing has never ended I guess we can say that Richard has done a pretty crappy job. LOL So - yeah - at some point our divided teams will all meet up at the war and decide to all walk away together - leaving only adam and eve. Starting to think A&E are Jacob and MIB though !

My thoughts on both Sayid and Ricardo being told not to let the killee talk before killing them goes with the school of not being able to determine who is bad/good yet. It's all gray area. And both MIB and Jacob know that neither of them are totally right or wrong - so telling these people to kill before the guy can talk is a way of trying to prevent your killer from being talked out of it.

We've seen 'others', the military and Dharma come and go soany one of those could have brought that ship log back and sold it to the auction house. I'm thinking that's all we are going to get on the Black Rock so it's a non-issue.

MIB did say that Jacob took his body/humanity but I'm looking at it as an imprisonment. Instead of chains his physical form is taken. Kinda like the Mummy movies - MIB has no physical form and keeps trying to manifest one he can hold onto in order to get back to the world. And Jacob is kind of the gate keeper who is going to do whatever he has to to keep that from happening. Anything.

My big question is - we thought the place (815) crashed because Desmond did not input the numbers - but now we know that Jacob was watching our castaways for years. So - was it really Des - or was it Jacob ???

The last ep title is a little dull - but I guess they want to make sure the name told us absolutly nothing !! LOL It's the next to final ep's name that scares me !!

Jessica - know what you mean about the co-workers, that was me yesterday ! Like we're supposed to work on post-Lost day !?! Sheesh

Mike V. said...

David, I speculated that Jacob probably somehow healed Ilana...we clearly saw him touch her at the end of season 5 and reminded again in this episode...then moments later she seemed to heal. She wasn't healing before that!

Kim - I think we're meant to still be confused a bit on Jacob/MIB. I'm guessing we will be until very near to the final episode....but it would be kinda a shame if we didn't get a Jacob and MIB backstory wouldn't it? (I posed that question the same way Team Darlton would when they're avoiding answering a question. lol Translation: Hint Hint...it's coming!)

Jessica - I figured it was all you, I just didn't want to assume! lol I don't even think Darlton HINTED at anything. They pretty much flat out implied that it was the Black Rock in both scenes. As I mentioned their style above...they speculate things in a way that they're kind of answering lol So they said "Carlton, couldn't the clouds have come and the sky darkened not long after the scene between MIB and Jacob?" Then Carlton would say something like "Yes it could have." Then Damon said something like "Do you think we'll be exploring anything more with the storms on the island before this show is over?" And then Carlton said "Well being really into the meteorlogical aspects of the island, yes i sure hope we would!" So no they didn't flat out say it's not the Black Rock...but they flat out implied it based on the context of their answer! LOL

Who didn't talk about the CORK? If you look at my comments about the podcast (including the link to the actual podcast) a few posts up, you'll see that I noted the producers said this was a very pivotal scene and they pretty much told us "what the island is" it's the analogy they have always used in the writer's room and they finally brought it up on the show. If I didn't speculate about it in the actual blog posting...it's because I only have so much time to post it and, in case you haven't noticed, I do write a lot! lol I figure if I miss something, we'll definitely discuss it in the comments. HERE WE ARE! lol And you're very welcome for the blog....thank you for the props and for reading!!

Mike V. said...

Peter, glad I could give you some food for thought! I definitely am subscribing to the "MOVING ISLAND" philosophy as the answer. I think it applied to everything we questioned how it got there when the island was in the pacific. The Nigerian Short-Range plane ending up there....well they went ahead and showed us that as they were moving through time (and Eloise Hawking further explained to us that the Island is always moving)....i'm going to guess the same applied to the black rock. Of course somehow Jacob SUMMONED them to the Island...so if that plays into HOW the Island moves..I don't know. But it seemed like there was something scientific about the way it moved because DHARMA was able to track it at the Lamp Post. (I see David provided some commentary on this too)

LOST Fan - I love that O.A.R. song...and I would be lying if I said I didn't play it on my iPod in anticipation of Tuesday Night's episode! LOL Although, even though I loved and always try to relate the song to LOST...I never thought the writers intentionally named the ship because of it. But either way, a good time!

KimB - Thanks so much for the compliments! Glad you found the blog and I too wish you and a lot of people could have found it sooner. The readership grows every year....that is the one unfortunate part of LOST ending. But maybe we'll find a way to keep the site interesting for a bit after the show!

Mike X - Who is Anthony Bourdain? (I ask as if I'm not going to go to IMDB and look it up lol) MIB is played by Titus Welliver who also had a decent sized role on Deadwood and also Supernatural (i don't watch but I heard Mark Pelligrino aka Jacob was on the show too. good times) I looked up your guy...have no idea who he is! lol

Mike V. said...

MJ - I would agree that the "DITCHING PLAN" might already be in effect. But it's not 100% yet! Some good thoughts there on your part. pretty funny with Richard doing a poor job too! lol A&E could be Jacob and MIB but they certainly would have to explain a lot of that's the case! lol the 40-50 year thing of course..and the fact that one is a woman! LOL But I'm not ruling it out! Interesting thoughts on Sayid and Ricardo and the knife thing as well. I am more curious about the "EXACT" words being used more than anything. It was kind of eerie lol But i do like the "come full circle aspect" MIB tried to kill Jacob...Jacob gets the knife..(probably gives to Dogen)...Dogen through Sayid tries to kill MIB....MIB gets the knife back. Although, yes, Dogen probably knew Smokey couldn't be killed lol

Good point on the Military Folk maybe getting the journal! Sidenote on the others: Seems like we might find out that there were OTHERS living on the island even in 1867 and Jacob was possibly lying (based on Darlton comments)...which makes sense...what about all of the egyptian artifacts and the temple? There were people there long before...and they weren't just killed off suddenly! lol

I would agree that MIB has no physical form...but I still say there is an old body somewhere! (ADAM or EVE perhaps like you said?) So do you think if he left the island as he is...he would cease to be a pillar of smoke and just be john locke? I just don't know about it!

I think Desmond still caused the plane to crash...I think Jacob may have had something to do with the plane being 1000 miles off course and for certain people SURVIVING the crash with no scratches. Just my thought though.

As with the finale title...yeah maybe they just wanted to assure people that there is some finality in the show LOL But yeah...that episode 16 title is definitely scary! And I really don't think it is how it sounds! LOL

MJ said...

Anthoney Bourdain - that was funny ! He's a very sarcastic chef on the travel channel - show is No Reservations. He wrote a book years ago on the dark side of chefdom - drugs and alcohol. He could be thought to look like Titus Welliver I guess.

MJ said...

With Adam and Eve being Jacob and MIB - if Flocke does get killed in the war then smokey just might take another form - a woman this time. Locke is just a meatsuit after all. And the 40 or so years the bodies seem to be - was just Jack's educated guess as surrounding conditions will always affect the decay rate of a body (Too many CSI's). Besides - the place is magic - so we shall see

Mike V. said...

Ahh my bad on the CHEF guy...Didn't realize it was a joke lol Thanks MJ!

Agreed that we shall see...and agree about Jack's estimation as well. But I don't know about MIB in his current state being the dead body. He doesn't have a body! That knife went right through him, no blood, nothing! He is SMOKE that can take human form (kinda)....if smokey is killed would he leave behind a dead body? I just don't know about it!

Whenever we speculated that Adam or Eve was MIB...i was speculating that his ACTUAL body was there and not the Smokey version! lol

But yes, this is one crazy magical place so we'll see where they go with it!

Anonymous said...

Htxis Time Poster (HTP)

Mike - great stuff as always on this blog

Onward to my meandering musings…..


The RAIN in Lost


Many times during Lost we have seen those downpours which preclude a significant event such as Smokey being on the prowl and people getting shot. What does Rain mean? It means nothing; the Rain is actually the elemental Jacob (J-Rain). If MIB can turn himself into smoke, it is only natural that Jacob can turn himself into water – the enemy of black smoke. The J-Rain shows up when Jacob is trying to protect our Losties from harm. The J-Rain slows down Smokey and gives our heroes time to hide or escape from harm and/or unfavorable situations, ie. Shannon shooting at Locke at close range and missing, Charlie shooting Ethan, etc…The Rain also provides strength to some of the characters such as Locke, and to Jack when he was fighting Ethan. In short, the J-Rain signifies Jacob pouring his “grace” on our heroes. Jacob also has the ability to control the ocean surrounding the island – he conjured up the storm and the wave to bring the Black Rock to the Island.

The island is an electromagnetism super hotspot. In the real world, strong electromagnetism controls water (water molecules are polar). Jacob is the either the source of all the island’s electromagnetism, or he has the gift to manipulate it.

Before the end we will see at least one, monumental, CG induced battle of the elemental MIB and Jacob. Who will win? The writers have already told us in LA X. It’s Jacob, water has “swallowed” and consequently submerged the island – making it impossible for Smokey to exist. And to think that I initially blamed “Global Warming” for the Island being underwater – stupid me.

The Season 2 Fire and Water episode has lots of clues regarding Jacob and the water. I know its one of those classic Whiskey Tango Foxtrot episodes, but man, it has lots of clues – just ignore the most horrible of flashbacks



MIB and Mother Issues

MIB’s mother, as well as Jacob’s, is Mother Nature – she’s always temperamental and certifiable on occasion, and she fits nicely with the Cold/Heat Miser Theme.


Locke and Darth Vader

I tried to get away from the Star Wars stuff, but I just can’t. Has anybody noticed the Anakin Skywalker scar on Locke? Did it foreshadow his turn to the dark side?? My kids have brought up Locke’s scar on numerous occasions.


The Black Rock Incident


Many comments regarding the Black Rock and its final resting place. I don’t have any problem believing the Black Rock landed in the jungle. There are numerous documented instances where waves have transported large ships several miles inland. The most famous being the steamship Berouw, which was carried over a mile inland by a tsunami, created by the Krakatoa eruption in 1883. In fact, the Berouw was never moved and it remains a very popular tourist attraction in Sumatra – I took my wife there on our honeymoon. However, the writers must have been really smoking the pakalolo to have us believe that a wooden schooner ship would survive a high impact head shot on a colossal statue. The Black Rock was riding a CG wave at least fifty feet high, which means that the wave was going at least 40 plus mph - the higher the wave, the faster it goes. In the real world, the Black Rock would have easily disintegrated upon impact. Even my kids laughed at that one. No worries though, were all sci-fi fans here.

Raul said...

Hurley says I can help you but I don't know where he went or where to find him...when he was talking to Isabella.

davidsalako said...

I am not sure why folks keep saying that Jacob gave his "magical touch" to Ilana as well in the Season 5 finale or in "Ab Aeterno"?
The camera specifically shows Jacob wearing distinctive black gloves while approaching Ilana's Russian hospital bed. This is shown to emphasize the fact that his interaction with Ilana was very different from the "anointed" Oceanics.
Watch those scenes again carefully.

Mike V. said...

Sixth Time Poster...VERY interesting stuff on Jacob and Water! While I don't agree with it all (Jack getting strength? More like ETHAN getting strength lol) it is very interesting. And with the HINT they gave for the finale...it even makes it more interesting..plus the fact that they mentioned the STORMS would be explored further in this season. Interesting indeed!

all other theories are a good time too...although i don't know how I'd feel if their mother was really MOTHER NATURE! lol

Thanks Raul for the Spanish Translation!!

okay david fair enough...then how do you explain Jacob giving Richard eternal life by touching his clothed shoulder? I don't need to rewatch them, I can remember them all! lol The fact remains...why was she bandaged up and in a hospital bed...jacob touches her and then a scene later jacob is wearing the same thing and Ilana is out of her bandages? And he said "i'm sorry i couldn't get here sooner" like she was waiting for him to come and heal her or something! lol

davidsalako said...

True, but Jacob had punched the heck out of Ricardus in their altercation so there was a lot of contact even before their log chat!

I think Jacob expressed his regrets for not getting there sooner to Ilana because he apparently is like a father to her and if she was hurt...

Probably nothing, maybe she is pseudo-immortal to as a gift from Old Jake.

Mike V. said...

True on the altercation, but does "any physical contact" with Jacob result in being granted a 'gift'? lol I'm not saying there isn't mystery around Ilana's character still. I would hope we still get more. But I don't know if she has any special gifts herself. Maybe she does...but I just don't know. I guess if Jacob was like a father to her then it would make sense if she had something special about her. I dunno! We'll see!

davidsalako said...

Plus Jacob's interaction in the cab with Hurley had him anoint Hugo physically in a similar way he did with Richard and Locke for that matter. lol

Okay, I am done with that particular subject now.

DK MD said...

How’s this for a theory?
One possibility is that time itself is changing “over time.” If so, then (in our “reality”) the evidence for the big bang (redshift) can go out the window (since it is based on a fairly consistent (linear) progress of time since the big bang (causing galaxies far away to be redshifted in their spectrum since they are moving faster.
An alternative explanation that would account for the redshift exists. What if the Lost premise is that the “big bang” was instead of a cosmic “explosion, an explosion of time itself. Maybe even from the great mother !, causing her to appear nuts/crazy those who were more linear (OCD like), since the universe now progresses like a spiral. Circular time is long present in multiple human mythologies (return to the beginning). Spiral time would instead take one, not to the beginning, but to a slightly alternative moment back-when, that is, from where one “was,” to where one “is,” just a bit altered.

See this image: http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file/prod/att/cat/2005/a0/321/tp_html/img/2005-a0321_cat_3_large_img1_2.gif

The island could be “explained” as traversing the radiating arms of time, out from the center of the spiral on a radius -ike axis…crossing over the recurrent (but not identical) spiraling progression of time.

davidsalako said...

The only weird thing I will mention about the time travel on the island is that not everyone gets to time travel so it means that somehow the island stays fixed BUT individuals on the island seem to be able to travel to the past or future and maybe even sideways???
For example, while Juliet, Daniel, Sawyer, Locke, Charlotte and Miles were time traveling, Richard Alpert and the rest of the Others were not, they stayed put in the original timeline. Neither were all the people they encountered in the time jumps- Eloise Hawking, Charles Widmore, Dharma Initiative etc.

Weasel said...

@austarwars:

No, it does not make them all bad just because they want off the island anymore than it makes them not bad just because they want off the island. I was just making the case that you cannot say that because he says he "Just wants off the island" that he is not the bad guy.

Weasel said...

@Jessica: Just because the ship was early 1800's does not mean it was not 1867. The ship did not look brand new...

rhinoceros said...

Thanks anonymous , great answer. Question was significance of naming ship black rock?

I think that the writers of LOST chose to name the ship Black Rock after the song entitled Black Rock by O.A.R. This song is about an actual place lead singer Marc Roberge and other band members went during high school in Montgomery County, Maryland. There were woods along a section of Black Rock Road in Germantown where they would go hang out. The song is about going to a place special to you when you need to get away. At many shows, Roberge alters the lyrics and sings "We all have our black rock, it's in our minds." This is one of my favorite songs by O.A.R. I think it's because the song talks about how people have a place that they go to when they need to reflect about occurrences in their lives. The people on the Island need to “let go” of the bad things from their past and get on with their lives. This is a sort of redemption , which is one of the main themes of LOST.
Lyrics to song: http://www.lyricsdomain.com/15/oar/black_rock.html
Listen to O.A.R perform song:
http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569509609495344

Weasel said...

@Anonymous (3:20am)
They were Slaves on the black rock. Yes Richard was arrested and sentenced to death, but was then SOLD making him a slave.

Don said...

Like I mentioned last week regarding CSI Miami, someone actually thought the same. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpVGmxj-xyQ

davidsalako said...

Indentured servitude and slavery of the kind Richard Alpert found himself in was very commonplace with a huge percentage of the folks that resettled in the Americas, Caribbean and Australia arriving under this sort of bondage.

Google "Indentured servant" or "Indentured servitude"

Sometimes the lines between outright slavery and indentured servitude were blurred AND the victims were of all races and not just slaves from Africa.

Jessica said...

Thanks Weasel, I agree it did not, and I'm no Ship expert, but I don't see how a wooden ship that was 30-40 years old (depending on how early in the 1800's it was built) would have even still been functional. I doubt it would have still been sailing. But like I said I am no ship expert, I just know that wood rots after being in water and being very old. Whatever, honestly after I posted a couple of comments about it I realized that I don't think it matters either way if it was the BR or if it wasn't. To me it just seems that if it was they would have made it a little more obvious to us than they did. And I will admit when I first saw the finale of S5 I definately thought it was the Black Rock, but then when I watched the enhanced ep, I wasn't sure anymore.

Glenn R. said...

@HurleyAteMe
You asked if Jacob intended to bring Richard to the island and make him his advisor.

The impression I took from the Richard-Jacob scene is that Jacob was quite rattled by the fact that MIB actually made a real attempt to kill him for the first time. And so, in that moment, he realized he needed to change his strategy to counter MIB -- and thus decided to appoint Richard as his consigliere and take a different approach to the people coming to the island.

My only question is -- why didn't MIB just go ahead and kill Richard once it was clear he wasn't going to kill Jacob, and in fact that Jacob was using Richard to counter his own corruptive influences on the island?

Glenn R. said...

Mike, you commented that we need to explore the Sayid/Dogen vs. MIB/Richard dagger speech more. Why was it so similar?

To me, they seem to be really driving home some important point here... Best I can come up with is that maybe Jacob and MIB are really just two sides of the same coin -- something like the yin-yang principle. That while one may be white and one black, yet neither can white can exist without black nor black without white. That they both will use the same strategies to win their game. So maybe it's a shout out to the possibility that in the end NEITHER Jacob nor MIB will be fully evil, or fully good, which they also hinted at in their newest podcast.

Annemarie said...

Who guards the Island? Jacob, right? Well he claims he does.

When the ship is in the storm, the guy looking out says to Richard, "I see the devil, the island is guarded by the devil"

Anyone agree this was a hint at which was right?

Anonymous said...

Hi Mike,

Now that the season is about half-over any interest in updating your list of questions you would like answered before the series is done? Maybe focus on questions that are likely to be answered before the season concludes?

Also, has ABC announced when their two-hour season finale will occur (day, hour, etc)?

Mike V. said...

just gonna hit a few comments for now.

Annemarie - i think that was just building up the theme of the episode with the Island being hell. It may have been significant, but I think the "CORK" scene was probably the most significant!

Anonymous - If I had unlimited amounts of time, I would certainly go back and revise my 23 Mysteries post, but I'm not sure I'll get a chance to get around to it. Sorry! Maybe after the show is over I'll revisit the list to see what we never found out and see if the Encyclopedia on 8/24 will answer them!

But yes the finale has been announced 5/23/2010 (Sunday) 8-11 with I'm guessing an 8-9 recap special or retrospective and then the 2 hour finale event! WOO HOO!

Don, funny stuff!! I got your tweet too! lol

All of the Slave talk and Ship talk...I totally agree. Thanks for backing me up! :-)

Glenn - I'm sure you're right about the Yin and Yang aspect of good and evil on the show...even Dogen's talk of the SCALE in every person plays into this as well. I think MIB's comment about arguing forever over right and wrong plays into it too...even if someone on this show has done evil things...is it necessarily wrong? I guess we'll find out! lol

Mike V. said...

Hey guys, I don't have verizon so I haven't been able to see their special videos. SL Lost has made them available though.

They're all with Damon and Carlton and a good tome....the most recent SLAPDOWN episode was with Nestor. But the one before was with Rebecca Mader who asked about the Archeologist vs. Anthropologist...they jokingly acknowledged it as a continuity issue and then said they'll just use SIDEWAYS as the excuse to get out of it....I thought it was pretty funny because we discussed it on the blog. I'll check out these other videos some time too...but now it's time for FLASHFORWARD!

http://www.sl-lost.com/tag/lost-slapdown/

davidsalako said...

There goes my Miles-Charlotte-Pierre Chang conspiracy theory in SIDEWAYS land, Archeologist vs. Anthropologist! lol!
This is so much fun!

Anonymous said...

I don't think the body of a dead person needs to be on the island in order for smokey to take the appearance of that person. I don't think this person has to be dead either. The scene where Isabella tries to save Richard in the black rock is subtly reminiscent of a scene in season 1 when Locke tied up Boone in the jungle and later Boone and his sister Shannon were running from the smoke monster. The smoke monster ends up killing Shannon, and Boone reuturns to the caves all upset at Locke. When Locke hears Boone's story, he says "Is that what it showed you?" Obviously referring to the black smoke. Locke then reveals that Shannon is alive and Shannon then walks right past them. So, smokey can take the form of someone who is alive and be the smoke monster at the same time while taking the form of someone. So, I think Isabella was indeed smokey. Also, I'm a little confused about whether Jack saw the ghost of his dad off island in season 4 when he was working late at the hospital or if it was smokey. If it was his ghost, then it would be kind of inconsistent with the appearance of Christian on island. If it was smokey, how the heck is he off island if thats what he's trying to do now (Thinking back to that scene, I remember Jack was turning off a smoke alarm when he suddenly saw his dad sitting on the couch. That to me hints that it is smokey appearing as Christian because the smoke monster would probably set off a smoke alarm.)

Mike V. said...

indeed David! fun indeed! lol

anonymous - first of all..I totally had the same opinion of the smoke alarm until we confirmed that smokey is trapped on the island..now i think christian was a GHOST appearance off island...whatever that means...the same that charlie was to hurley. i dunno though because jack can't see any other ghosts besides his father! i'm sure we'll get some kind of answer to all of the ghosts eventually. as for the Shannon/Boone thing with Locke....I think we may have seen enough evidence to point out that Smokey might be behind the "DREAMS" on the island. Locke gave boone something that knocked him out...and then boone had a crazy dream. so maybe "IT" was smokey but I think Locke was referring to the ISLAND not smokey necessarily. but he may have thought of both being the same thing. Anyway...if Smokey is behind the dreams...then it makes sense that he could show living people in them as well. But as for smokey taking the APPEARANCE of someone in a NON-Dream...they have all been dead people on the island so far.....UNTIL Isabella. And one might argue...Ben's Mother could have been a smokey incarnation. but i don't think smokey had scanned Ben at that time yet. also smokey never scanned boone...so i'm not sure how he would conjur up an image of shannon. unless he got it from LOCKE's island memories.

anyway..all speculation...but I don't think we have seen Smokey take the HUMAN/non-dream form of someone who is alive. and that may include his possible ORIGINAL FORM that Titus Welliver plays (if it is his original form)....

That's all i have for now! Gotta write that FlashForward blog. outstanding episode tonight yet again!

dreamr2012 said...

I was thinking the same thing about Richard finding out all the "secrets" of the island so quickly and everyone else has been through hell and back. I am confused about the conversation between the MIB and Richard when he gives him the dagger to kill Jacob. I thought I heard the MIB say he is the black smoke. Then he tells Richard that Jacob is the devil and black smoke and must be killed. I listened to that part several times. Can anyone clear up that conversation?

Belazethi said...

Here are some thoughts about a possible explanation for the date and time-of-day discrepancies regarding the Black Rock:

In “The Constant” at the auction that Widmore is attending to buy the BR ledger, they say that the BR set sail on March 22 1845 on a trading mission and was lost at sea. Then the ledger was found 7 years later, in 1852. I think that Magnus Hanso faked the BR being lost at sea in 1845 and then continued to use the ship for illegal and off-the-record purposes (slave trading, smuggling, or whatever).

I also think that MH figured out a way to get to and from the island (or Jacob told him how), and that he had some kind of agreement with Jacob to bring people there. In the Season 5 finale we see one of the trips that the BR made to the island, before 1867 (“over” 140 years before 2007, like the captions said), on a sunny calm day, so the ship did not crash (Jacob said there have been other people brought to the island but we haven’t seen other shipwrecks). Then on a different trip (in 1867) the BR got caught in a storm and crashed.

This is why the ledger was found off the island (it got lost sometime while the ship was sailing around between 1845 and 1852). I wonder what “never before made public” information was in that ledger? Maybe something about the island that Widmore wanted to know (or wanted no one else to find out). Maybe he thought there was something in it about how to find the island. (Maybe there was!)

Belazethi said...

I also have a theory regarding some of the other discrepancies we have noticed. I think that in addition to this episode being a flash back, it is ALSO a flash sideways – we see into the history of the sideways timeline (STL) that is very similar but slightly different than the island timeline (ITL). I do think that the histories of the STL and ITL during the time we saw in this episode were very similar – all of the major occurrences were the same. There were just small, subtle differences that have been put into the episode deliberately as clues.

The major items in 2007 ITL Richard’s history are the same as STL Richard (wife Isabella dying, accidentally killing that guy, being a slave on the BR and crashing on the island in 1867, hearing MIB say “good to see you out of those chains”, getting instructions to go kill Jacob, agreeing to work for Jacob in exchange for being made immortal, etc.).

But, ITL Richard seems a little less concerned about killing than STL Richard, as someone pointed out, so there are small differences. (Although I’m sure people can change over the course of 140 years!)

The statue could have been damaged a little differently in the 2 timelines, resulting in different debris around it. Jacob and MIB could have had slightly different conversations, so STL Jacob doesn’t remember having the conversation with MIB that we saw them have on the beach in the Season 5 finale (because that was the ITL). Jacob also acts a little differently -- attacking Richard in STL instead of staying all zen like in ITL.

To really back up this theory, there should be a reflection in this episode as a clue that it is the STL (like all the mirrors and other reflections we have seen in the STL stories). So, I watched the episode again looking for that, and I’m pretty sure that I found it, although it is very subtle. Jacob and Richard are sitting on the beach drinking wine after Jacob dunked Richard in the ocean, and he holds up the wine bottle for Richard to look at, explaining about the evil/darkness. When he swirls the wine around and says “and here it is, swirling around in the bottle unable to get out…” (before he puts the cork in and turns the bottle upside down) – there is a reflection on the bottle. I had to pause on just the right spot to see it (people with HD TVs might be able to see it better). It looks like there are two people in the reflection, with sky and clouds around them. The person on the left is Richard, with dark hair and beard (although you can’t really see his face), and the other one looks really dark – I guess it is supposed to be Jacob, either in shadow or maybe suggesting that he is not so good in this timeline, I don’t know. Or the dark thing/person is something else.

When MIB smashed the bottle later, it reminded me of the times that Sawyer and Jack smashed mirrors (as well as it referring to MIB escaping from the island).

davidsalako said...

@ Belazethi - I think your are definitely on to something regarding the Black Rock and its trips to the island. The mysterious Magnis Hanso was probably involved in setting up an early version of the Dharma Initiative - Namaste!

Y'know, when we were watching "Ab Aeterno", I wondered if it was both a flashback AND flashsideways to! But then I forgot about it until you mentioned it again. The debris of the Tawaret statue bothered me - it is laid out exactly the same way as we saw the debris underwater in LA X. Slightly different from the original timeline.

I thought the sneaky trick was like "Flashes Before Your Eyes" where Desmond's consciousness was actually time traveling and it wasn't a flashback like we had grown accustomed to.

Florin Milea said...

Mike V - I stand corrected on the Sawyer and Jack. I just don't remember Jack doing that to the marshal. I guess we could split hair here, that if Sawyer wouldn't have done that, Jack wouldn't do that other so at best they're both guilty of something contributing to it.

I have to agree with you to a point on Smokey and claiming people, or visions or dreams and incarnations. The whole issue is confusing to me still.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that doodle in that episode I think is a clue in that direction. Jacob touched John and let's say he was dead - who wouldn't falling from that height? But Jacob didn't restored his walking besides restoring him back to live when you compared how quickly Ilana heals practically in under 60 seconds in one scene and few even notices how subtle the whole thing was. Thank you for noticing that.

When John is is in the airport and I assume until the Oceanic was over the island, John was still paralyzed. Yet on the beach he walks and then he develops his affection with the island and sabotages in many occasions any attempt of the losties to jave a chance to leave, save for Michael's raft. He even sabotages Sayid's attempt to locate the tower with the radio SOS, he blows a submarine and kills Naomi. Only Rose did a similar thing undermining her husband's - Bernard SOS rock on the beach and she told him why. She wasn't scanned by smokey, yet in the first episode Smokey made himself known to the losties, she said that the sound was familiar to her. John did his sabotaging work even before smokey scanned him on the island.

So besides convenience writing from the producers, I have to assume that - both Jacob and smokey could do that, one for the good and the other for the bad and that...
- Smokey could claim a body off the island just like Jacob could travel off it but...
I also think that Smokey could have claimed John's body, but he could not exploit the situation fully until John would be dead, or been on the island, or both - rmemeber, John's motehr was never ont eh island and neither Isabelle, Ricardo's wife. Let's also remember that John almost committed suicide on his own. Ben killing him in the same fashion was just an opportunistic act for Ben to come back to the island and he did that after he learned that John was to contact Eloise in LA, but with so many refusing to even consider coming back to the island, he could not understand. Maybe that's why John's body had to be brought back to the island, so smokey can actually inhabit it for real, or to prove to people that the new Locke is not him, but somebody else.

Florin Milea said...

I am sorry for the misspelling, ,my mind is awake, yet my fingers are asleep. I hate keyboards.

Florin Milea said...

davidsalako - I think the broken pieces of the statue been in the same position as in the episode LAX, makes sense. This is the final season after all. What I am still wondering, is the purpose of that showing. If the island is under water and un-livable to say it this way, why would the island needs protection, unless... oops, that would be a spoiler.

Mike V. said...

I'm going to save my comment responses until some time tomorrow! Just finished my FlashForward Recap and wanted to share the link with you joint readers!

Come check it out!

www.flashforwardaddicts.com

Or if you're just in a giving mood, please click on the Gather version of my FlashForward Post. Every page view goes towards me getting a small contribution for my blogging efforts.

FlashForward Gather Link

As always, I thank all of you guys for your readership and contribution to the blog! Keep the great discussion going! I will try to post some more tomorow! NAMASTE

Florin Milea said...

Mike V - I was just about to ask you for all those links. Also, where did you got that blog bkg pic of the island with the light from the hatch? It would be a good desktop picture.

Florin Milea said...

Annemarie - Just because the character saw the statue and equated it with the evil it's not necessarily so. That character, perhaps less educated than even Richard was, saw a statue resembling something satanic, did so in poor visibility and jumped to the first logical conclusion, especially for people with more training in spiritual matters than anything else.

DK MD - Great contribution with the circular motion of time and perhaps even space. That would definitely explain - to whatever degree of satisfaction the sideways and forward flashes. Add there now the parallel universe whereas different choices in different worlds or even just circumstances leads to different outcomes and voila.

Mike V - Thanks for your efforts man and appreciation of our contributions - I wish I could get a job soon just for a such purpose.
One crazy idea just hit me. Jacob uses the lenses of a lighthouse to scan and bring to the island the potential candidates. I was so hit by Jacob's proposal to Ricardo if he wants a job after all that happened to Ricardo? I was like - What? Are you kidding me? Are you crazy? And just fill in your favorite reaction to a such thing.
We know now that MiB/Smokey -by the way, anyone noticed in the spirit of ying/yang the clothing of Jacob compared to MiB, said he'll kill the candidates as well. We also know that MiB is not restricted from wondering off, so chances are that he accessed the unguarded lighthouse and knew who those candidates are or will be. I think that while Jacob was looking for the best protector, the MiB used the same list looking for the most gullible candidate to use against Jacob. Mr Echo was rebellious, Kate, Sawyer would fall in the same category, Jack is a man of science, but a John Locke looking for a place to belong and been so easily conned, made John the perfect candidate for Smokey/MiB to 'stamp' off the island for further use when he'll be on the island. I don't know how to explain he's been able to travel off the island but...
... we know that Jacob was held prisoner for a time in a cabin and I think that Ben and Richard we're unaware that they were now taking orders from MiB/Smokey and doing his bidding while they thought they're doing Jacob's work. That would also explain why Ricardo wanted to be killed by Jack with the boomstick and pretending not to know what to do next; Because he was confused just as Ben was a to what the heck?

The thing that Floke likes children is not an indication that Flocke would have come in the world as a child. Yes, he's very considerate to children, but we need more info on it.

The 'jin' factor corroborated with the ying and yang does make sense to a point but on a closer inspection I would say - not likely at least not so far.

rhinoceros said...

This ep. Reminded me of when Ben 'controlled' the smoke by pulling a plug and letting scpull of water flow out. I wonder what that is all about

Mike V. said...

Dreamr2012 - Pretty sure MIB said "i am the black smoke" and the devil must be killed. He lied to Richard and said that Isabella was running from the devil...and he as the smoke tried to stop Jacob/the devil. Of course, he may have been telling the truth. We just assume he is lying right now. Hope this helps!

Belazethi - Definitely an interesting theory with the Hansos being involved with the island and perhaps helping Jacob. As for the time of day thing....I'm still deferring to Darlton when they say we're going to explore STORMS on the island more. I am guessing we may see that scene one more time.

I figured David would be your 1st supporter with the statue destruction maybe also reflecting a sideways timeline! lol It's a great theory! I don't want to go there personally as I like this as a BACKSTORY/Flashback. BUT....there is a chance that Richard's story predates the sideways universe....as in...the timelines were the same up until a certain point (most common theory is Jughead/The Incident obviously, but I"m not committing yet! lol) So in that case, I would agree this is covering both timelines.

It does make sense though with the debris possibly lying around in the underwater island shot. I dunno..i have to think about it more!

With the reflections...hmmm the wine bottle? I dunno! We never see richard's reflection in there. In every other sideways scene we have seen a reflection. Even if it was as subtle as Sayid knocking on Nadia's door.

David, was the debris really EXACTLY the way we saw it on the underwater Island? I thought we saw what we thought was the ankh to the front left of the foot on the underwater island. But in this scene we see an ankh behind the foot and what would be the right side if we were looking straight at the foot. I dunno...I'm being nitpicky! But I just don't see it! lol And you guys can definitely GLOAT like Jacob and tell me I'm wrong when it comes true! :-)

Florin - Oh yeah, Sawyer is definitely responsible for causing Jack to mercy kill the Marshal...but the fact remains that Jack still had to do it in the end!

You're welcome on noticing the Ilana healing lol Yeah, I thought Locke was dead when Jacob seemed to revive him in that scene...but maybe he was "MOSTLY" dead (not ALL Dead...ahh the Princess Bride, the man in black GOOD TIMES!) I'm subscribing under the idea that Jacob cannot raise the dead as he mentioned to Richard. We don't really know what restored Locke's healing. I was satisfied saying that the ISLAND did it....but now that we know this dude with healing powers is strolling around the island...maybe he stopped by during the crash? Wouldn't it be great if we re-watched all of the arrival scenes to the Island to see how Jacob interacted? The black rock arriving, 815 arriving...maybe even Desmond's sailboat. I would love to see a montage of that if it is of any significance. But we'll see!

We did see MIB touch Richard's shoulder in the Black Rock for a very extended amount of time...maybe that is suggesting some kind of healing but I don't know! It is possible that Smokey claimed John early on. Whatever that means...many are theorizing on it. Again, I want to know what "CLAIMED" means and then see if it applies to Locke's desire to fulfill the Island's every wish! lol

Mike V. said...

The picture for the island background of the blog....i dunno...just google image search LOST Backgrounds...I'm sure you'll find it eventually. I always loved that picture and have never been able to part with it, obviously LOL

You're totally welcome on the efforts...I only wish this was a full time job for me! You guys make the effort more enjoyable knowing that all of this writing isn't going to waste (because I'd probably do it anyway...see season 2's recaps! lol)

I do like the idea of the lighthouse bringing people to the island...it also obviously allowed Jacob to watch these people somehow some way....maybe even transport himself TO those places.

Whew...i gotta head to work...if i get a chance i'll look at the rest of that last comment Florin! lol

Thanks for everyone's comments again! Keep it up!

Mike V. said...

Very good point Rhino! Very similar to uncorking the bottle. No idea what it's about though! lol

Mike V. said...

Hey guys, I wanted to share another interview with Damon Lindelof. The ODI had an opportunity to chat with him on his podcast. Another great interview with the man, the myth, the legend! Damon's main advice to fans is to AVOID spoilers for the finale. We will be tempted but we have an opportunity to be watching live with everyone simulcasted around the globe. once in a lifetime event. He also talks about fans splitting into 2 groups with the Flash Sideways stories...and how he said we're going to see more and more how they "INTERSECT/MERGE" He hinted that they kept using those words on their podcast.

And also noted that even though he didn't want to get into it...there were some heated debates with Adewale's (EKO) people and LOST peeps on getting him back into the show this season. It sounds like he will not be coming back :-( Anyway, it's a great listen and made my commute to work short once again! Enjoy!

The ODI Speaks to Damon Lindelof

davidsalako said...

Looking straight at the statue remains, both "LA X" and "Ab Aeterno" have the left foot of the Tawaret statue remaining with the ankh to the right (a little bit back) of the foot as debris.

Of course this doesn't meant that the ankh couldn't have been there in the original timeline at first and then removed somehow by some thing, some force or some persons.

Also just realized that Ben really doesn't remember the first time he met Richard as the Temple healing erased his memory. He actually met "wild looking" Richard before he was 12 just outside the Dharmaville sonar fence, looked like he was about 8 or 9 at the time.

Mike V. said...

David, I don't think he forgot EVERYTHING from PRE Sayid Shooting....he would have no memory of his father then..and he definitely told Charles Widmore that he doesn't want to go back to him. The first time he met Richard was in the jungle when Richard had the crazy long hair lol

I think he looked like he could have been 12 in season 3. I think Zach and Emma might be closer to 8 or 9 lol But I'm not too good with assessing ages of younglings!

As for the ankh, I'll trust your expertise on the issue as I need to look at the pictures again to be sure. Maybe I was looking at the wrong thing on the underwater picture. I'll have to check it out. It certainly would be interesting if it's tied together somehow. That sideways story is tied to the island story somehow!

Mike V. said...

I checked back on my blog...still looks front and left to me if anything lol

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D38eBGiDXzQ/S2mdqVq-igI/AAAAAAAACfM/5I5oR9ILZPk/s1600-h/4+toed+underwater.jpg

(hopefully that link doesn't run over)

davidsalako said...

Actually I got my left and right, front and back mixed up. lol
Haven't had my morning coffee in Houston yet!
Let me try again...
Looking at the statue pic as in the .jpg the left foot of the statue is seen with remnants of the ankh to the right of the left foot which would be our left looking at the statue. It is as you said a little bit to the front of the foot.

Mike V. said...

No problem David! lol Okay...so we're agreed at where it is underwater now...

now look at this picture and tell me where you see it! LOL I see it behind the statue and "TO THE RIGHT" if you're looking at the island from the ocean.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_D38eBGiDXzQ/S6n0WacMPYI/AAAAAAAADQM/Dxj2lRSpjgU/s1600/Screen+shot+2010-03-24+at+7.12.55+AM.png

Just doesn't seem identical to me.

davidsalako said...

Your are right Mike V., the ankh in the shot with Richard is all the way in the back now although on the correct side. I have had my coffee now. Maybe the tides moved the ankh a little bit forward by the time the island got submerged or is it "uncorked"?!
Good times! lol!

Anonymous said...

Hey Mike,

Interesting point you make about how para-Lock gets healed by the island vs maybe Jacob's touch.

The pilot episode opens up with Jack regaining conscouinous in the jungle (the famous eye scene). Obvouisly Lapiduis (I mean Sully) was not flying the plane so there was no miracle on the Hudson--yet bodies did not splat when they hit the island. Therefore you could conclude that for some periord of time all surviors blacked-out (for 2 minutes and 17 secs-sike) while some un-natural force placed them randomly around the island.

Is Jacob the un-natural force?
Perhaps setting up the board with his new healed pieces to continue the game...

Or is gravity as fickle as fate?

They replayed that opening scene when the Oceanic-6 return to the island and land sporadically in/near the lagoon. Jack is one of the first to awake-again.

Is there any significance other then the writers showing us a loop in there lives?

Or why on re-entering the island atmosphere only some flashed to 1977 and the rest waited for them in 2007?

My apologies if this was hashed out before.

Mike V. said...

There you go David, keep justifying it! LOL (j/k) Never give up on a theory, that's my philosophy. Annie is still Sarah in my mind! lol

Anonymous - yeah it did seem like there may have been people blacked out for a little bit of time. only problem with that is that Kate tells Jack that she remembers everything about the crash. I would love to see that crash one more time from a new perspective. I would think that might be in the cards as a BIG REVEAL in a final episode or something. But what do I know? lol

yeah i looked at Jack waking up and being called to action as mirroring the pilot episode a bit. There may be more to it in terms of the story and all, but I never looked at it more than that.

as for some flashing to 1977 vs. 2007...the most popular theory right now is that it was the ALIVE CANDIDATES that traveled through time. (because obviously locke's body didn't travel back) This would confirm why Sun stayed behind (if she's not a candidate). we also saw Charlotte and Miles' name on the wall...not sure about Faraday. We don't know why miles is crossed off either.

Don't know if that's the correct theory...but the producers said they won't come out and tell us that one but we'll be able to figure it out based on what we learn.

we'll see!

Deebo said...

Quick theory on why certain characters flashed from 2007 to 1977…When Hawkings said that if they do not recreate the original flight as close as possible and bring back everyone who left then the results will be unpredictable…Well they did forget one important thing…AARON! Maybe that’s why some flashed off the plane

After rewatching this episode when Richard drops the nail out of his reach when the boar runs by was anyone else thinking…ummm use your feet!!

Do you guys still think purgatory is possible? If Richard has been off island to see Locke’s birth why would he still say they are in hell? Hurly did say that WE go to hell? I know MIB was using Hell as a means to get Richard to do his bidding but this is Lost so who knows! Lol

Deebo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike V. said...

Deebo - Absolutely 100% no way in "HELL" will this show end with PURGATORY as any kind of official answer! It would be UNACCEPTABLE by the masses as it was denied by Team Darlton immediately upon speculation! lol

The foot thing is a good point...maybe he couldn't turn his body around the way he was chained up...i dunno!?

yeah good point on Aaron...and considering we see Kate have a dream with Claire in it saying "DO NOT BRING HIM BACK" it makes it kind of interesting! We still need to know more about these crazy dreams!

I guess we'll see!

davidsalako said...

I think from MIB's perspective the island must seem like he is trapped in "'hell" for what seems like an eternity.
Except, I always thought hell is/was a one way ticket and not roundtrip as he seems to be trying to create. lol.

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